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The Movie Kirk - A Bit Depressing

I think movie Kirk (at least from TMP to VI) is a very, very rewarding rendition of what Kirk would be like as he advances in years. People want TOS in movie Kirk but that's a mistake. I don't want TOS Kirk in Movie Kirk.

Kirk is an unhappy and frustrated admiral, wannabe captain but as a man he grows, he finds that some things in life are more important than the big chair, he deepens his rich friendship with Spock with his rescue which exacts a profound and terrible toll on him that moves us all (none of this skip onto another episode he's fine n' dandy business) and that great triumvirate of Kirk, McCoy and Spock are also tested, crowning a legendary friendship. The big chair takes a back seat with all these things that really matter in life.

In VI he struggles badly to overcome the death of his son and all that baggage he has with the Klingons, he fights through that pathological quagmire and at the end he seems at peace with himself. signing off in poignant style bringing closure to a great career.

Generations -- this is Berman's show. He writes well enough for his own TNG squad but Kirk bobs about like a loose end in that film with the flimsy Guardian of Foreveresque plot device waiting to be crammed into his "I'll die alone" prophecy he made from V.

So Generatons didn't really satisfy me with Kirk -- but the rest of the films Kirk enjoys some great character development and with plenty of sublime acting from Shatner, dodgy fight scenes notwithstanding. ;)

I think this says better and more effectively how I feel. I think there's a rewarding character journey that is happening with Kirk throughout the movies, and having him face the question of are there more important things than that command. I very much like TSFS, but in light of this discussion, Kirk goes about about what he feels like he has to do to save Spock, soul or whole, in a superficial way...by falling back on what he knows best, the command of a starship. He doesn't use (or abuse) the powers of an Admiral, he is where he is in the show, overruled and fighting someone with higher authority who thinks they know what's best for everyone. I think it would have been interesting to see Kirk operating on a higher level, but what we get in the movie is ok.

I also think that there is a missed opportunity with the loss of David. The destruction of the Enterprise could be seen symbolically, as Kirk willing to go as far as sacrificing the big chair, command of a starship, to save his friend. The death of David kind of gets lumped in and included with the sacrifices made to save Spock, but this is where it gets thorny. Returning to the idea of symbolism, we can read a regrettable turning away from the idea of the next generation, with the death of David, in favor of nostalgia with the restoration of Spock. It's one possible reading of the unfolding drama of the movie series. You make a good case for what TUC does to make lemonade out of a lemons, by exploring Kirk's character growth from that tragedy.

On the whole, the first through sixth film is reasonably solid progression, with evidence of alternative interesting narrative pathways that might have been explored peeking out at us. When we add ST Generations, we see a third variation of Kirk going up and down and not learning from his past mistakes, and it's just that one more time that is one too many. We see him make the mistake of going up and come down in TMP. Then he's done it again in TWoK, but that movie kicks off a sequence of events that keep going. Then we think Kirk has achieved a certain amount of peace and will fade away into history in TUC. And Generations mucks it up, by suggesting to us that TUC's ending was just Kirk falling into the same trap again. I think Generations is a breaking point, for me personally. That's the movie were I as a viewer despair over Kirk's self-sabotage, and his journey ends on a depressing note not merely by dying, but worse happens to him before he does.
 
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I actually find Pine's Movie Kirk more depressing. At least Shatner's movie Kirk knew what it was that gave him joy in life. Pine's doesn't even seem to know wtf he wants out of life most of the time, & he's a little too old to be going thought that by now. Shatner's is a middle aged man who has a legitimate amount of trepidation about what's transpired in his life. That may be the realest attribute a Star Trek character has ever depicted imho, & in the end it isn't sad, because he isn't sad about it. Examining someone's life, warts & all, and coming out the other side with a better understanding of them is actually life affirming, to my way of thinking. I don't think I'd have as much affinity for Kirk if they hadn't sent some of that humble pie his way in the movies. It was a necessary thing for that character to be realistic, & not some episodic archetype to be revisited on a weekly basis
 
Generations was written by people who disliked TOS and wanted to prove that TNG was the best, had taken over whatever. They didn't understand or care about the whole ethos of TOS. They indulged Shatner with the horse thing and man-of-action thing and it the end gave him an inglorious death and mixed messages about his life. One minute Kirk was saying to Picard, don't let Starfleet keep you from your imaginary woman and the next minute he was telling Picard to stay in Starfleet as a Captain where he could make a difference.
I wish he'd become an elder-statesman Captain like Pike in nu-Trek.
 
William Shatner really looked the part in TMP. He was in the best shape of his life, he had an almost-convincing rug on, for a change, and with a thick base of make-up, looked well-preserved, otherwise. His performance was very reminiscent of how he played Kirk in TOS and as a result, is probably the best performance Shatner gave of him in the STAR TREK movies. I like him in the later movies - TSFS, especially - but he'd already moved into his "movie Kirk" persona and the TOS performance he made so famous just kind of went by-by. And that's alright, I mean ... I'm sure some small part of it was boredom playing the same role, time after time. Putting on those pyjamas for a quarter of a century kind of lost its fascination for him, at some point, as it would me. An Artist likes to branch out and explore new ground ... even though The Shat was a working actor, if you like, living the movie Groundhog Day decade after decade probably exaggerates the tediousness of it all ...
 
I just saw a man dealing with the details of getting older, everyone will have his or her little aches, pains, screw the glasses! Get off my lawn! You don't know shit about shit kid, AND PULL UP YOUR PANTS! Life is hard wear a helmet! Yes, you will have less patience with those damn padd addicted celebrity obsessed next generation snowflakes, trust me.. :p;)

He's a bit out of place, not difficult to understand, you go away on a five year mission and when you come back it simply isn't your world anymore it's as simple as that and Kirk did a few of them, as for the sports, the flirting and whatever, eh, it's Kirk we're talking about , ever seen a Bond fan complain about this? Or Bond being declared unfit, needing to clear in an urine sample, being called a cold war relic? All fine, so why not for Kirk?

In the end, and I mean TUC, he's still James T -I'll shove that damn torpedo right up our tailpipe! Kirk.

*trips and falls off his soapbox.
 
William Shatner really looked the part in TMP. He was in the best shape of his life, he had an almost-convincing rug on, for a change, and with a thick base of make-up, looked well-preserved, otherwise. His performance was very reminiscent of how he played Kirk in TOS and as a result, is probably the best performance Shatner gave of him in the STAR TREK movies. I like him in the later movies - TSFS, especially - but he'd already moved into his "movie Kirk" persona and the TOS performance he made so famous just kind of went by-by. And that's alright, I mean ... I'm sure some small part of it was boredom playing the same role, time after time. Putting on those pyjamas for a quarter of a century kind of lost its fascination for him, at some point, as it would me. An Artist likes to branch out and explore new ground ... even though The Shat was a working actor, if you like, living the movie Groundhog Day decade after decade probably exaggerates the tediousness of it all ...

Kirk / Shatner also gave us some insight in GEN, when he said to Picard / Stewart "I don't need you to lecture me. I was out saving the galaxy when your grandfather was in diapers. Besides which, I think the galaxy owes me one. All right, ...I was like you once ...so completely blinded by duty and obligations that I couldn't see anything past this uniform. And in the end, what did it get me? An empty house. ...Not this time."
 
I watched Generations at the weekend and I was left feeling a bit depressed about the road they had taken Kirk down in the movies. He is a disappointed, unhappy man at the end of the day. Lonely & frustrated; hiding his sadness behind a bluff exterior. I don't think was even a revisionist stance in Generations either, this character development had been ongoing since TMP. I think it's a brave and bold move on the part of the various filmmakers but it left me melancholy for Kirk. I have no question here, these thoughts had just been hanging around in my brain and I needed to get them out.

Price he paid to ride a rocket for a living. The price many in show business pay as well. My guess is real life inspired the script and the reading. The rest is performance a la Shatner.

Note here. Mr. Shatner needs no defense or admiration. But I am going to offer it just the same.
Many malign him, mock him or his performance. Even Mr. Chris Pine did in an SNL skit. With the help of the entire cast and crew (of course) Shatner breathed life into Captain Kirk.

Other musicians may play Zeppelin music better than Jimmy did, but Jimmy came up with it in the first place. And he made a name for getting the work recognized. You have to give the artist that!
 
Kirk / Shatner also gave us some insight in GEN, when he said to Picard / Stewart "I don't need you to lecture me. I was out saving the galaxy when your grandfather was in diapers. Besides which, I think the galaxy owes me one. All right, ...I was like you once ...so completely blinded by duty and obligations that I couldn't see anything past this uniform. And in the end, what did it get me? An empty house. ...Not this time."
When Shatner owned the role of James T. Kirk, he owned it. While he could still just about get away with playing him, he made a memorable turn as him and I like most of what he'd done. Yes, I think he screwed up with TFF and I find his acting to be generally quite hammy, corny AND cheesy ... but that's The Original Series for you. You know? And the later TOS movies, especially, from TVH, on. Those last three movies were shite. Had they been made-for-TV the quality wouldn't have suffered greatly. But in TMP, Shatner came prepared to launch himself as a major movie star.
 
flirting and sleeping with women half his age

When does he do that? Iman flirts with him more than the other way around in Star Trek VI. I guess he flirts with Gillian in IV, but she just pecks his cheek at the end and no real romance develops. It was clear he wasn't going to get back together with Carol in WoK and she's his own age. That's it for romance for Kirk in the movies. People always overstate his womanizing.

but the rest of the films Kirk enjoys some great character development and with plenty of sublime acting from Shatner, dodgy fight scenes notwithstanding. ;)

So you don't enjoy that sweet leg flip from TSFS?
 
I don't think he ruined Decker's career. Embarassed and frustrated him, yes, but not blackballed from command. The implication was that if things had all gone to plan with the V'Ger crisis, Kirk would have been shuffled back into his office on Earth and Decker would have resumed command of Enterprise at least for the remaining duration of it's refit. It's never struck me as there being any major indication that Kirk would retain command after the operation.
 
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Although I enjoyed Generations I think Kirk seems out of character in this film.
Definitely. He was much more Shatner than Kirk.

It was also disappointing that, considering how many great speeches Kirk and Picard had over the years, their interaction in Generations is basic and uninteresting. It was a squandered opportunity for exceptional exchanges between the two characters.
 
Definitely. He was much more Shatner than Kirk.

It was also disappointing that, considering how many great speeches Kirk and Picard had over the years, their interaction in Generations is basic and uninteresting. It was a squandered opportunity for exceptional exchanges between the two characters.

Agreed. Shatter was wasted in this movie. I wish they had written it so that Kirk could have been on the bridge of the Enterprise D.
 
It was also disappointing that, considering how many great speeches Kirk and Picard had over the years, their interaction in Generations is basic and uninteresting. It was a squandered opportunity for exceptional exchanges between the two characters.

Wouldn't it degenerate to what would effectively be a rap battle? It'd have to be pretty interesting to keep our attention.
 
Wouldn't it degenerate to what would effectively be a rap battle? It'd have to be pretty interesting to keep our attention.
These are two characters who've each proven to be brilliant, master orators on many occasions!
What happens when we put them together?

P: Come help me. I won't explain why this is super important, but I can't beat this one 300+ year old guy for some bizarre reason.
K: No, I'm tired of being a hero and want to live in this obvious fantasy for eternity.
P: Pleeease?? Just do this one more nebulously heroic act, then you can die like normal and not live in this wonderful fantasy for eternity!
K: I like horses.
P: I too like horses.
*literally 10 seconds later*
K: I guess this obvious fantasy is obvious after all. I'll go help you do whatever nebulous thing it is you wanted me to do instead.
P: Yay!
P&K: *guys who have single-handedly taken down multiple Klingons on several occasions nearly get beat at fisticuffs by single 300+ year old guy*
K: That was fun! *dies in a stupid way*
 
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But usually when either gives a speech, it's to an antagonist or a subordinate. (Technically, Captain Picard is Admiral Kirk's subordinate, but they're kind of on equal footing otherwise.) I agree that they could have done something awesome together, but who wants a movie (which is visual) about Kirk and Picard preaching to each other?
 
I don't recall Kirk being an Admiral in Generations. I thought he was a retired Captain, who retired because they wouldn't let him Captain anymore.
 
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