The Most Toys - did Data intend to kill Fajo?
- Thread starter hxclespaulplayer
- Start date
I like to think he did intend to kill him because that would mean he'd transcended his programming, making him another step closer to being human. Of course you could say this is a rather negative "improvement" in his character but in my opinion he was right to make the decision to kill him, it seemed like the only logical option at the time.
I think it is pretty clear in the episode that Data had reached/surpassed his limits and was trying to kill Fajo at the time of his transport. It is what makes this whole episode to powerful-that Data could actually get to that point and act on it.
Attempted murder and deception...
This is probably as human as Data ever got.
This is probably as human as Data ever got.
No need to be so negative in this case imo. You could see this in a positive light. Data's decision wasn't simply to murder someone. Fajo just brutally "slaughtered" someone a few seconds earlier. Probably one of the most terrible ways to die. Not only was Data's decision simple revenge, Fajo had proved he was a complete psychopath as far as I'm concerned. As Data said: "I cannot permit this to continue." and he was right, what would stop Fajo? Data would go back to his chair and Fajo would be free to kill again (Data didn't know the Enterprise was on the way). Killing Fajo means Data would be free too. It wasn't like Fajo was some kind of unarmed innocent man (of course Fajo wasn't armed at that very moment but that's part of Data transcending his programming).
Also "deception" is kinda too much imo. As biotech pointed out his colleagues would have reason to doubt his programming. As was shown several times during the series Data's abilities could be a thread when used for the wrong reasons (beyond Data's control). If Data didn't have himself under control, so to say, that would be a problem.
I love the vagueness of the ending, one of the few TNG episodes to have ambiguity at the end especially when it concerns one of the man characters.
I always thought that in this ep, Data's logic proved deadlier than any emotion. Vajo's killing of Varria showed beyond any doubt that he would kill again and again, whenever it suited him. The only way to prevent that would be Fajo's own death. Thus Data had no hesitation about eliminating Fajo.
I don't quite get this "transcended his programming" thing. Should we really think that Data was born with some sort of a "no kill I" rule? If so, he had "transcended" that aeons ago: he was a Starfleet officer whose duties included murdering the enemy for king and country. By the time of "The Most Toys", he had pulled the trigger on the enemy with lethal intent in at least "Q Who?" and "The Survivors", and had engaged in potentially lethal firefights in half a dozen episodes. No doubt his previous Starfleet career and training had already required him to come to grips with the idea that he would take lives as a matter of course.
As for lethal intent in "The Most Toys", we have to separate between whether Data wanted Fajo dead, and whether Data wanted Fajo stopped. Data could choose whether or not to stop Fajo. But if he chose to stop Fajo, he could not choose between lethal and nonlethal means, since the only weapon he had in his possession was lethal in all circumstances. (He might have simply walked over to Fajo and snapped all his limbs without killing him, but an energy weapon would be his only hope of coming out of the fight alive in the long term - Fajo had a largely loyal and supposedly armed crew, after all, and Data was alone.)
In other circumstances, Data could quite well have stopped Fajo from being a danger to life and limb. There exists an efficient system of criminal management in the Federation: Fajo would either be quickly rendered harmless by advanced psychotherapy, or then locked into a mental asylum for life as an "incurable case", as shown several times in TOS. Logic would thus not require Data to kill Fajo.
To examine anger and vengeance as Data's leading motivations is an entirely separate issue from pondering whether Data's logic required him to kill Fajo. Nothing elsewhere in TNG suggests that Data would have been able to actually feel anger in that situation, not unless augmented by the emotion chip - but there are many instances where human customs and exceptional circumstances confuse Data's generally utilitarian logic. The supposed "outburst of anger" in "The Most Toys" could be explained either way: a logical act in Data's rare predicament where he only possessed a lethal weapon and had no backup, or a rare breakthrough/lapse into emotion that he later carefully covered.
Personally, I prefer to think it was the former, as that's more consistent with Data's earlier and later portrayal.
Timo Saloniemi
As for lethal intent in "The Most Toys", we have to separate between whether Data wanted Fajo dead, and whether Data wanted Fajo stopped. Data could choose whether or not to stop Fajo. But if he chose to stop Fajo, he could not choose between lethal and nonlethal means, since the only weapon he had in his possession was lethal in all circumstances. (He might have simply walked over to Fajo and snapped all his limbs without killing him, but an energy weapon would be his only hope of coming out of the fight alive in the long term - Fajo had a largely loyal and supposedly armed crew, after all, and Data was alone.)
In other circumstances, Data could quite well have stopped Fajo from being a danger to life and limb. There exists an efficient system of criminal management in the Federation: Fajo would either be quickly rendered harmless by advanced psychotherapy, or then locked into a mental asylum for life as an "incurable case", as shown several times in TOS. Logic would thus not require Data to kill Fajo.
To examine anger and vengeance as Data's leading motivations is an entirely separate issue from pondering whether Data's logic required him to kill Fajo. Nothing elsewhere in TNG suggests that Data would have been able to actually feel anger in that situation, not unless augmented by the emotion chip - but there are many instances where human customs and exceptional circumstances confuse Data's generally utilitarian logic. The supposed "outburst of anger" in "The Most Toys" could be explained either way: a logical act in Data's rare predicament where he only possessed a lethal weapon and had no backup, or a rare breakthrough/lapse into emotion that he later carefully covered.
Personally, I prefer to think it was the former, as that's more consistent with Data's earlier and later portrayal.
Timo Saloniemi
YES Data meant to slaughter Fajo like a dog in the street and he is a very dark android on the inside. It is a shame the TNG writers did not follow up on this and have Data do other evil things to experiment with the "dark side" such as having affairs with married officers (both female AND male) and kicking Spot.
I would argue that yes, he intended to kill Fajo, which importantly means he values his on life at a level beyond that of simply being a machine. If Data thought he was simply a machine than killling another human to protect his own life would be distinctly amoral. He could only fire in good conscience if he considered himself at least equal to Fajo.
Data didn't have a rule against all kinds of killing. He mentioned in that very same episode: "I am programmed with the ability to use deadly force in a cause of defense."
Very big difference between simple murderer and killing someone in a fight. If I remember those episodes you mentioned correctly in all those cases the opponent was a direct threat to him and his ship/colleagues.
It was the fact that he transcended the "in a cause of defense" part of that rule.
Why would we have to make a separation between those two? As I mentioned in my previous post he was in a very complex situation with few options. I see no reason why he wouldn't want revenge and stop Fajo, not motivated by anger but because Fajo would/was capable of kill(ing) in cold blood. (It might be Brent Spiner's acting but it seemed clear Data was "angry" when he grabbed the weapon and it was his only way out.)
Good point he could also have put his gun to Fajo's head (or threatened him in some other way) but of course Fajo was aware of his "in a cause of defense" rule so that wouldn't work.
IMO (part of) the point here is that his decision to kill was the logical thing but he couldn't make that decision because of his "in a cause of defense" rule. Because of his "anger" he was able to transcend this rule (this might not have been an actual emotion but since Data respected all life and Fajo just ended one a few seconds ago this goes against everything Data believes and perhaps could "function" as an emotion without actual emotion (that sure is a paradox
)).Also if it really was an emotion maybe that simply helped him "ignore" this rule. Doesn't seem all that unlikely since Dr. Soong included similar things such as Data's ability to dream which would be activated at a certain moment.
+1
To be sure, Data never says that he is limited to using deadly force for defense. Rather, he says he is capable of using deadly force for defense, which is a completely different thing. If Starfleet ordered him to perform a first strike, we have no reason to think that he would disobey.
Data doesn't seem to have any "hardwired" limitations that we would have been told of. There's no "rule" against him killing, or lying, or using contractions, that would have ever been mentioned on screen - Data merely has a lifelong habit of only doing those things in great moderation.
On a more general level, why would a machine be less enthusiastic about self-defense than a biological entity would? We could program a machine today with the idea that its self-survival is the most overruling goal and the highest law in the entire universe. Soong would probably have taught some healthy self-respect to his creations, too, lest they be lost without fight to some stupid misunderstanding, user error or the like.
It's only Fajo's personal, fatal misunderstanding that Data would be incapable of killing due to his "fundamental respect for living beings". His argument for this is desperate, repetitive and unconvincing - just what you'd expect of somebody held at gunpoint.
Timo Saloniemi
Data doesn't seem to have any "hardwired" limitations that we would have been told of. There's no "rule" against him killing, or lying, or using contractions, that would have ever been mentioned on screen - Data merely has a lifelong habit of only doing those things in great moderation.
On a more general level, why would a machine be less enthusiastic about self-defense than a biological entity would? We could program a machine today with the idea that its self-survival is the most overruling goal and the highest law in the entire universe. Soong would probably have taught some healthy self-respect to his creations, too, lest they be lost without fight to some stupid misunderstanding, user error or the like.
It's only Fajo's personal, fatal misunderstanding that Data would be incapable of killing due to his "fundamental respect for living beings". His argument for this is desperate, repetitive and unconvincing - just what you'd expect of somebody held at gunpoint.
Timo Saloniemi
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