The Most Overrated Episodes

[horatio83]

Captains aren't autonomous. Sometimes they have no choice as to how they proceed. Nechayev points out that the Enterprise is chosen solely for namesake value, because it's an historic ship that's name carries weight throughout the galaxy. Jellico was ordered to take command & conduct a negotiation that everyone predicted would end in a lengthy war erupting

Therefore Jellico had to take a capable ship & crew, & REoutfit them such that they would no longer be geared to their existing mission of standard negotiations & exploration, but rather as a full-time tactical vessel at the forefront of a longstanding fleet war.

Jellico was in a position of having to make necessary changes to that end, before he even beamed aboard. Whether the changes were his call or a joint understanding with HQ is unknown, but one thing is certain, if the standard "Smooth" operations of the ship were enough, then they could have just put Riker in command & brought Jellico in as a negotiator

There would have been no one better than Riker to keep the ship & crew at their peak standards, but clearly that was not what HQ wanted, which is why they handed the whole ship & mission over to Jellico. It's evident that everything Jellico did was to give Starfleet what they wanted, & not to merely to be a douchebag. Why would anyone chosen to prevent a war, or begin the initial stages of one ever behave in such a manner?

No, the problem was that Jellico was in a hard spot where he had to do something that if it were Picard doing it with the ENT crew, then no one would ever give a second thought. They'd just bust ass, & do everything he asked, because they have implicit trust in him, from years of service together, & though I figure Jellico has that trust on the Cairo, he had no such luxury on the Enterprise, nor did he have any time to build it. As such, he just had to push for it, knowing they could deliver, whether they liked him or not, & expecting that they wouldn't.

Interesting working assumption but it is not based on anything mentioned in the episode. Just take a look at how Picard (or if you wish to in addition to that Kirk as well as any other Starfleet captain we have seen hitherto) has run the flagship and how he has dealt with admirals, he has a lot of autonomy.
Even in a dire situation like the one from "Chain of Command" Starfleet Command certainly will not tell the captain of the flagship to run four instead of three shifts or in general micromanage the ship from a distance.

Furthermore I also don't buy the assumption that the Enterprise is totally converted into a tactical vessel, there have been many dire situations near or in the Romulan Zone that did not make a warship out of the Enterprise. There is a reason Starfleet's largest ships are multi-functional, that exploratory and military tasks are not separated.

 

[Mojochi]

edit for double post

 

[Mojochi]

My memory may not be perfect, but I rarely if ever recall a situation where a former military combatant had suddenly encroached on their territory, with the clear intent of reclaiming it or thrusting them into a full on war. I'd also suggest that the ENT-D & crew were of a different era & likely mission & crew design than previous models. Let's not even get started with the children & schools on board thing

A lot of autonomy yes, but not complete, least of all in a crisis worthy of replacing the captain of the flagship. Jellico was handed the ship & crew with a specific mission to accomplish, on an all but nonexistent timetable. For the sake of dramatic purpose, it isn't inconceivable to accept that specific difficult changes would need to be effected, changes that he may not have been ordered to make, but was given so little latitude & time, were the only possible courses of action, for the impending circumstances, which would explain why he seemed to know everything he needed to do before he got on the ship, & just had to count on the fact that the flagship crew could handle it

Let us not forget that less than 4 years earlier, the majority of the ENT-D crew thought the idea of a military exercise was laughable. (Peak Performance) Clearly this was a new ship that was not exclusively meant to be used as a frontline, fleet military engagement vessel.

None of this really addresses the issue of why anyone charged with preventing war would purposely sabotage that mission by going out of his way to compromise his crew, & it is HIS crew now. Why would anyone, even a complete asshole, do that, least of all a respected captain, with his kid's elephant drawings on his desk to remind him of the importance of his actions?

Frankly, the man consistently struck me as someone going down a checklist of things that had to be done right for this to work, with little or no time to be personable about it, & perhaps a bit of an ego that did not respond well to difficult crew reactions, & no real ability to drop ranks to get the message across

He is not a perfect man, but he was doing his best, & for the most part so was everyone on the ENT-D crew, even though it was in some cases begrudging, which it appeared that Jellico expected

Except Riker. He could have done more to make it work. He is not the final word, & unless the captain is giving orders that are so outlandish as to put the mission, crew, or ship in jeopardy, then you follow them. Make your objections known within the bounds of protocol, & if they get dismissed, you do your job anyway, & stow the sardonic overtones

Look at Picard in the very same episode. He's seemingly going down a checklist of things that need to be done to make his mission work too, & it's taxing on all three of them, but because of their familiarity, & trust in one another, they just muddle through, never doubt, & never allow themselves to compromise anything because of the difficulty

 

[horatio83]

Simply ask yourself why Picard's team, Worf and Crusher if I remember correctly, comply whereas Riker and Geordi complain. Either the latter are whiners or they serve under a bad captain. Knowing that Geordi is not the guy whose usual work day ends after his 8 hour shift I'd say that he is anything but a whiner.

Except Riker. He could have done more to make it work. He is not the final word, & unless the captain is giving orders that are so outlandish as to put the mission, crew, or ship in jeopardy, then you follow them. Make your objections known within the bounds of protocol, & if they get dismissed, you do your job anyway, & stow the sardonic overtones

Funny that caring about the well-being of a comrade justifies to steal a ship in the case of Kirk but does not justify standing up to your captain in the case of Riker. They both do what they consider as right and don't care about the career consequences which is far more admirable than the "STFU and do as you are told, officer" behaviour you suggest.

 

[BillJ]

All you have to do is ask yourself this question: how good of a relationship would Picard and Riker have had if Riker had simply ignored Picard's order to manually redock the saucer? The answer: not a very good one.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Riker clarified the order then carried it out, regardless of his personal feelings. Which is exactly what he should have done in Chain of Command. You raise your objection, then carry out the orders you're given.

There can only be one Captain of a boat.

 

[sonak]

All you have to do is ask yourself this question: how good of a relationship would Picard and Riker have had if Riker had simply ignored Picard's order to manually redock the saucer? The answer: not a very good one.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Riker clarified the order then carried it out, regardless of his personal feelings. Which is exactly what he should have done in Chain of Command. You raise your objection, then carry out the orders you're given.

There can only be one Captain of a boat.

this is true on the technical merits, and since Jellico wasn't ordering anything that was illegal or immoral, his orders should have been carried out.


However, a captain that continually shows no interest in the views, feelings, or morale of his crew is not going to be a very effective captain in the long term. I realize Jellico was only there to carry out a mission for a specific time period, but his style would not work as a regular captain.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Overrated episodes (off the top of my head):

-Darmok

-The Inner Light

 

[BillJ]

All you have to do is ask yourself this question: how good of a relationship would Picard and Riker have had if Riker had simply ignored Picard's order to manually redock the saucer? The answer: not a very good one.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Riker clarified the order then carried it out, regardless of his personal feelings. Which is exactly what he should have done in Chain of Command. You raise your objection, then carry out the orders you're given.

There can only be one Captain of a boat.

this is true on the technical merits, and since Jellico wasn't ordering anything that was illegal or immoral, his orders should have been carried out.


However, a captain that continually shows no interest in the views, feelings, or morale of his crew is not going to be a very effective captain in the long term. I realize Jellico was only there to carry out a mission for a specific time period, but his style would not work as a regular captain.

But early in Jellico was cordial with Riker. It was only after Riker didn't carry out the order nor let Jellico know that he hadn't carried it out that Jellico soured on Riker. How sour would Picard have been if he'd given an order and found out six to eight hours later when he walked out on the bridge that it hadn't been carried out?

Riker's primary duty in this situation was to smooth the transition. But he was incapable of seeing past Picard and simply acknowledging that different commanders have different command styles. And was probably smarting because someone other than himself was given command in Picard's absence.

I also disagree that Jellico couldn't operate as a regular captain. He had obviously done so as captain of the Cairo and was respected enough to be given command of the flagship in a time of crisis.

 

[horatio83]

Imagine a management seminar that is supposed to use a captain from Star Trek to exemplify good leadership.
Jerkico would definitely not be picked. Picard on the other hand ...

 

[Balrog]

Overrated - Tin Man. The whole episode is grating. I was rooting for the star to go supernova and for it to be over.

 

[horatio83]

Overrated episodes (off the top of my head):

-Darmok

-The Inner Light

They are far better written than the action-leaning episodes. I never understood the supposed greatness of Yesterday's Enterprise or Best of Both Worlds. Sure, they are good but thematically not as rich or as touching as the episodes you listed.

 

[sonak]

All you have to do is ask yourself this question: how good of a relationship would Picard and Riker have had if Riker had simply ignored Picard's order to manually redock the saucer? The answer: not a very good one.

In Encounter at Farpoint, Riker clarified the order then carried it out, regardless of his personal feelings. Which is exactly what he should have done in Chain of Command. You raise your objection, then carry out the orders you're given.

There can only be one Captain of a boat.

this is true on the technical merits, and since Jellico wasn't ordering anything that was illegal or immoral, his orders should have been carried out.


However, a captain that continually shows no interest in the views, feelings, or morale of his crew is not going to be a very effective captain in the long term. I realize Jellico was only there to carry out a mission for a specific time period, but his style would not work as a regular captain.

But early in Jellico was cordial with Riker. It was only after Riker didn't carry out the order nor let Jellico know that he hadn't carried it out that Jellico soured on Riker. How sour would Picard have been if he'd given an order and found out six to eight hours later when he walked out on the bridge that it hadn't been carried out?

Riker's primary duty in this situation was to smooth the transition. But he was incapable of seeing past Picard and simply acknowledging that different commanders have different command styles. And was probably smarting because someone other than himself was given command in Picard's absence.

I also disagree that Jellico couldn't operate as a regular captain. He had obviously done so as captain of the Cairo and was respected enough to be given command of the flagship in a time of crisis.

yes you're right about Riker in that specific situation. I wasn't so much defending his approach as criticizing Jellico. We don't see his style as full-time captain of his other ship, so it's hard to draw conclusions.


But again, a captain who basically ignores crew morale and input from subordinates is just not going to be a great leader.

 

[Mojochi]

But again, a captain who basically ignores crew morale and input from subordinates is just not going to be a great leader.

Right, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that this specific situation might be an extenuating circumstance for Jellico, much like it is for Picard, & everyone else. I seriously doubt he'd be a highly noted captain in Starfleet's eyes, if he was completely dismissive with his Crew on the Cairo. Certainly there is a lot of support to the claim that Starfleet has many strong willed captains. It would almost seem to be a prerequisite, even in Picard's case

Imagine a management seminar that is supposed to use a captain from Star Trek to exemplify good leadership, & I never said I prefer Jellico to Picard. liking Picard more doesn't make Jellico bad

Jerkico would definitely not be picked. Picard on the other hand ...

Well, Picard is given an entire show to round out his leadership credentials. Of course he's going to be the better example. I never said I prefer Jellico to Picard, nor does preferring Picard mean that Jellico is a bad captain

Simply ask yourself why Picard's team, Worf and Crusher if I remember correctly, comply whereas Riker and Geordi complain. Either the latter are whiners or they serve under a bad captain. Knowing that Geordi is not the guy whose usual work day ends after his 8 hour shift I'd say that he is anything but a whiner.

Geordi only truly complains once, that we see, which was to Riker. Initially, Geordi makes his objections known to Jellico, & when they get dismissed, & Data explains how to proceed, the subject is dropped. Geordi is clearly not happy about it, but carries out his orders. Then later, Geordi makes his one complaint to Riker, with a suggestion to involve Picard, which is within the bounds of protocol to ask. He is, after all, overworked, understaffed, & being asked the near impossible. Gee, That never happens to Geordi, right?

When Riker then goes to Picard, he finds him physically wrecked, overworked, understaffed, & being asked the near impossible, which ought to send the clear message that everybody is in this situation & needs to just man up & do what's expected of them

Riker however, gets off on the wrong foot, from the get go, because he didn't carry out the order to change the shift rotation, postponing it until he could persuade the captain to relent. That doesn't work. From then on, Riker is subtly sighing, back talking & rolling eyeballs at nearly every interaction with his captain.

That's not standing up for your principles. It's bucking the chain of command, with no reason to do so, besides the orders being difficult. You carry out difficult orders, despite objection. It's uniformed code, unless there is a worthwhile reason to disobey

Now, I don't think Riker is a bad officer. Actually, I think he should have taken a captaincy sooner than he did, but he was wrong in this situation, & he became even more wrong, when he began demanding that they take action to rescue Picard or attempt to protect him by implicating Starfleet. He became insolent, & insubordinate. Troi saw it, & tried to stop it, but couldn't, & Riker was rightly dismissed from duty. He got it in his head that Jellico wasn't right, the minute he met him & things deteriorated from then on. That's just bad thinking on the part of an officer, & easy to get caught up with for a viewer who identifies with a principal character, & might not be an officer

Now, if Riker was truly convicted, then after he was dismissed, or beforehand had he been able to cool his jets, he'd have disappeared with a few other officers of a similar mind, & stole a shuttle, tried to track down Picard himself, & rescued him personally. That would have shown some guts, & if successful, its disobedience might have gone overlooked, but that didn't happen, because it would have been foolhardy, just like Jellico said it was. If Riker wants to be foolhardy like that, then he should get his own starship & throw caution to the wind

Funny that caring about the well-being of a comrade justifies to steal a ship in the case of Kirk but does not justify standing up to your captain in the case of Riker. They both do what they consider as right and don't care about the career consequences which is far more admirable than the "STFU and do as you are told, officer" behaviour you suggest.

Standing by your principles is admirable, yes, but they are officers. Following the chain of command (Name of episode much?) is what they are sworn to do. IT IS one of their principles. There are rare exceptions, when it is in conflict with another principle. When you dismiss a principle like that, you then move forward as though you have abandoned a part of yourself for the greater good, consequences be damned

That's not what Riker does. He's sitting on ass, reading a book, when Jellico comes back for him, probably knowing full well, that the mission will need him, in which case, he should have just stuck with the mission, & the chain of command, & trusted like he's supposed to, or gone off on his own, & dismissed his chain of command principle, & risked life & limb to do what he thought was right

 

[horatio83]

Insubordination is insubordination. To claim that stealing a shuttle is better than what Riker did seems strange to me. It is a far worse case of insubordination.

I agree with you that Riker is not a paradigmatic first officer in "Chain of Command" but I totally disagree with you that Jellico is a good captain. There is a large difference between good leadership and "do as I told ya because I am your boss".

 

[Mojochi]

Insubordination is insubordination. Ironically neither Kirk nor Riker are really punished for it.

I agree with you that Riker is not a paradigmatic first officer in "Chain of Command" but I totally disagree with you that Jellico is a good captain. There is a large difference between good leadership and "do as I told ya because I am your boss".

And I'll agree that Jellico's work on the Enterprise is not the pinnacle of otherwise great leadership, but it is apparent that these are extraordinary times, calling for the possibility of extraordinary measures

I believe you're assuming that Jellico is behaving as such because that's how he is all the time. Whereas I am considering the circumstance as being extraordinary & extenuating, (which it obviously is for all parties) such that he may & most likely is finding himself in the imposition of being new to the crew, but needing the ship to operate as though he isn't, & needing the crew to follow precise instruction under those circumstances, to complete this very touchy mission, which means he was always going to be less reasonable than they wanted, no matter how he acted

To summarize, "Asshole" is the only suit they gave him to wear. So he's wearing it, like it or not. Which means he must use that as best he can, & everybody else just has to suck it up, because in his own way, he may be doing that too. No one wants to be an asshole, or if they do, they are not the kind of person who is elevated to that level of a leadership role

This is why I enjoyed it that Troi points out to Riker that Jellico is not as self-assured as he behaves. He's doing it because he has to. To do less would put them all at risk

Insubordination is insubordination. To claim that stealing a shuttle is better than what Riker did seems strange to me. It is a far worse case of insubordination.

But it would at least confirm his commitment to his convictions, more than just getting bitchy. It's more than insubordination. it's a direct disobeying of an order

Point being, don't just buck the chain of command... fuck the chain of command, if what you truly believe is more important than your oath

 

[horatio83]

Theft is bad but robbery is OK? I don't follow you here.

As I already said, I disagree with your notion that Jellico had no other choice. If you want to get the best from your crew you treat them with respect, listen to their suggestions and try to establish a climate of trust and cooperation ... especially during a crisis.
When Geordi is spouted out of the turbolift onto the bridge and tells the captain to destroy the Iconian probe in "Contagion" Picard does not hesitate for one moment because he trusts Geordi. He knows that Geordi would never say something like this unless he is totally sure. Now picture Jellico in the identical situation.

 

[Mojochi]

Theft is bad but robbery is OK? I don't follow you here.

Huh? I didn't say anything like that. I am saying that if Riker believes so strongly, that he's willing to disrupt the chain of command like he did, & spout off about how they should be doing something that they're not, then why isn't he? He's already abandoned the chain of command & been dismissed because of it. Of course theft & robbery is bad, & so is insubordination & disobeying orders, & all that jazz. We're saying it's ok to be insubordinate & disobey orders, & even steal or kill or die if necessary, if it's to uphold a more important principle.

But that's not what Riker is doing. His defiance ends right after he gets relieved. If you're willing to defy part of the system that you've sworn an oath to, then you should be willing to do all you can. Shit, Data is willing to let Picard & Geordi die, so some Exocomps aren't used as slaves. THAT'S conviction. Throwing a temper tantrum & then sulking in your quarters is just stupid

As I already said, I disagree with your notion that Jellico had no other choice.

Of course he had no choice. If he had his own way, I imagine he'd rather tackle this mission with his own ship & crew. That was not an option given to him. The Enterprise was the face they wanted on that border. Jellico was the man they wanted for the mission.

That meant giving the ENT-D & crew to him, on ridiculously short notice, in the depths of a crisis it was apparently not fully prepared for. (Hopefully not a common practice) That action carries with it consequences which are beyond Jellico's control. The urgent, time sensitive nature of the mission carries additional ones, as well. The main ones are that the crew will not trust him like they do Picard, or Jellico's Cairo crew trusts him. The other is that the changes he will need to make will be looked on negatively, especially given how hard they are & how soon they need to be done.

The sole act of putting him there left certain things out of his control, either by orders or even just by design, which we have to assume he will have the best measured solutions for as possible, because he is a respected captain. One of those solutions is "You're stuck wearing the asshole suit, so you might as well make the best of it"

If you want to get the best from your crew you treat them with respect, listen to their suggestions and try to establish a climate of trust and cooperation ... especially during a crisis.

He does treat them with respect & courtesy, although keeping it as brief as possible. He does listen to their suggestions, but dismisses the ones he cannot abide, irregardless of how uncomfortable it will make them. He only slams people down when they come at him in a way that deserves it, & his responses are very measured, & appropriate to the reactions he is getting, imo.

A climate of trust is established over time, time they don't have. Therefore he just has to push & be unreasonable, because the very nature of his situation places him in that imposition. It is a certainty that the way you would behave when you want the best from your crew, is going to be different than the way you must behave when you are forced to get the best from another leader's (Begrudging) crew, with barely the time for an introduction, let alone a honeymoon

In rewatching it today, I took special note of how soon after Riker is relieved, that Data & Geordi have forged a circle of trust & understanding with Jellico. They ended up making for a very good team, that not only put them in the position to stop the Cardy fleet, but also to save Picard's life.

All that was drawn up in the captain's ready room, by Jellico, Data, & Geordi. Troi just buggered off. Crusher retreated to sickbay for possible triage prep, & Riker sat on ass, until it became obvious that he was the most qualified shuttle pilot aboard, & could be of use in their plans

 

[Jaro Stun]

Inner Light by all means

 

[Ian Keldon]

Why during normal operations would Picard have wanted to make upgrades like that?

So upgrades like that would only have military applications? Increased fuel efficiency and better acceleration would be two things you'd likely gain. That wouldn't come in handy in case of a disaster on a colony or ship in distress?

Picard and Riker are suppose to be commanding the best of the best. They're suppose to be blazing trails not waiting for others to do it for them.

EDIT: Well said Mojochi.

You two are forgetting that systems are designed with normal operating perameters that take into account other factors than raw performance.

Pushing ANY device to 100% or more of it's capacity for any period of time results in excessive wear and tear and sooner or later breakdown.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Overrated episodes (off the top of my head):

-Darmok

-The Inner Light

They are far better written than the action-leaning episodes. I never understood the supposed greatness of Yesterday's Enterprise or Best of Both Worlds. Sure, they are good but thematically not as rich or as touching as the episodes you listed.

Each to his or her own opinion.

I found them boring, cheesy, and melodramatic in some ways.