The Most Disliked Episode of DS9, Season 6: 2021 Edition...

[JirinPanthosa]

Honor Among Thieves is a quality O’Brien episode that sets a different tone than the series usually has.

SONS AND DAUGHTERS
STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES
CHANGE OF HEART
HIS WAY
THE RECKONING
PROFIT AND LACE
TIME'S ORPHAN[/QUOTE]

 

[Bad Thoughts]

His Way. Definitely something fresh for Star Trek. Lots of charming moments, although sometimes cringey.

SONS AND DAUGHTERS
STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES
CHANGE OF HEART
THE RECKONING
PROFIT AND LACE
TIME'S ORPHAN

 

[Farscape One]

Saving "STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES".

The Jack Pack was fun to watch.


SONS AND DAUGHTERS
CHANGE OF HEART
THE RECKONING
PROFIT AND LACE
TIME'S ORPHAN

 

[Brobdingnag]

"CHANGE OF HEART" is the best of the remaining ones. Although it seems absurd to put a husband and wife into such a situation, however, that aside the episode had pathos.

SONS AND DAUGHTERS
THE RECKONING
PROFIT AND LACE
TIME'S ORPHAN

 

[Sakonna]

Wow, gruesome lineup!

I will save "Profit & Lace" based on how incredibly fascinating I find it. This episode is often correctly savaged for it's hideous misogyny, but what makes me really want to write a thesis on it is that IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO DO A FEMINIST STORY ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS. And this is where that intent brought them! I actually have watched "Profit & Lace" a lot more than the other three here, and that's always what's holding my interest, the fascinating disconnect between what they thought they were doing and what they actually did.

And the total commitment of the cast. I always find much to appreciate in that, the actors valiantly giving it their all as they go down with the script.

SONS AND DAUGHTERS
THE RECKONING
TIME'S ORPHAN

 

[Oddish]

I will stand up for the Reckoning, then. It shows us how far Sisko has come on his journey from skeptic to faithful, and reminds us again of Winn's pure hypocrisy.

Two appalling efforts left.

SONS AND DAUGHTERS
TIME'S ORPHAN

 

[Seven of Five]

Ninja'd!

I tried to save Sons and Daughters before the last vote, and I will still save it. the Ziyal/Dukat/Kira scenes are easily the best of the episode. Worf retroactively becoming a shit father was a dumb move, though. The scenes with Calamity Alexander were hit and miss as well.

Therefore Time's Orphan the worst episode of S6. I don't hate it as much as a couple of other episodes, but it's the worst one remaining. This one is just a bit bland.

 

[Oddish]

Since Severed and I just posted simultaneously and saved seperate episodes, I will declare "Times Orphan" the loser. Any objections?

 

[Brobdingnag]

Well, it's well-deserved, Time's Orphan is a terrible episode, down to Keiko's remark that started the whole thing. When it was question of trying to pull Molly out at an earlier age she said: "If we do there'll be no one to grow up and become this Molly, we'd be robbing her of ten years of her life!"

My answer was "What? Is she insane? these ten years crippled her daughter, making her an outcast possibly forever and she's worried about removing them?" Talk about stupid and insensitive. Besides, in the end, that's exactly what happened. It's like Keiko's IQ was lowered below sixty for this episode.

 

[at Quark's]

Wow, gruesome lineup!

I will save "Profit & Lace" based on how incredibly fascinating I find it. This episode is often correctly savaged for it's hideous misogyny, but what makes me really want to write a thesis on it is that IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO DO A FEMINIST STORY ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS. And this is where that intent brought them! I actually have watched "Profit & Lace" a lot more than the other three here, and that's always what's holding my interest, the fascinating disconnect between what they thought they were doing and what they actually did.

And the total commitment of the cast. I always find much to appreciate in that, the actors valiantly giving it their all as they go down with the script.

Loathsome as the episode is, I likewise appreciate the efforts of the actors. Some scenes are still amusing despite the overall episode being a mess. I like the fight between Quark and his mother, for example. Or the slug-o-cola scene. Or that scene where Rom shows Quark how to walk like a female (even though it is stereotyping, of course).

Is there any evidence for the claim they actually wanted to do a feminist story about women's rights ? (aside from the plot revolving around that theme, that is). Just curious.

 

[Sakonna]

Is there any evidence for the claim they actually wanted to do a feminist story about women's rights ? (aside from the plot revolving around that theme, that is). Just curious.

I feel like I've seen another interview that went into it more at length, but this quote from the MA page also captures it well...

The original idea for this episode came from René Echevarria. "We were all at lunch, talking about doing an episode about Moogie, the feminist movement, and giving Ferengi women the right to vote," Echevarria recalled. "It was a very preliminary discussion, and I said, 'I have this feeling that Quark ends up in a dress. I don't know why, but I think somehow Quark and Rom have to masquerade as women in order to pull something off.'"

That feels like it captures the moment it all started to go awry. A discussion about a female character, feminism, women's rights -- and the only thing in there that struck a chord with this table of writers was "MAN IN DRESS FUNNY!"

 

[Bad Thoughts]

As I see it, the episode never really condemned the stereotypes of women as it should have.

 

[Sakonna]

"Time's Orphan" is legit my most hated episode this season, so perfect winner for me. I was actually so eager for a return appearance from Keiko at this point, it had been such a long time, so I have particular rage that this is the story they had for her when she finally did pop up again.

"Sons & Daughters" also particularly infuriates me for being such a blemish in the occupation arc. Every other episode works, to some degree, and this is the only note that totally clangs.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The only thing Sons and Daughters does for the arc is bring back Ziyal. Otherwise, it could have been a generic episode in any season.

 

[Farscape One]

And "TIME'S ORPHAN" wins season 6.

This has been exciting so far, as 2 of the previous game's winners are now fully eliminated from the finals. I really wonder how it will turm out.

I shall start season 7 later today. Thanks for playing!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don’t think it’s straightforward whether it would be the right thing to erase those ten years.

Painful years or not, go back and take an earlier Molly you are erasing a living person from existence because you prefer a different person exist instead.

My big problem with Sons and Daughters is they had to lower Alexander’s IQ, and erase his development in TNG towards being a peacemaker, for it.

 

[Oddish]

Presumably, Molly herself would have disagreed with you, given her actions at the end.

My chief issue with "Profit and Lace" is that it craps so totally on the women's suffrage movement as a whole. In the US, women spent over half a century fighting their way to gain basic rights of citizenship, and it was a group effort that constituted thousands of women and not a few men as well. In "Profit and Lace", we are expected to believe that one woman took Ferengi females from chattel to equality by seducing the Grand Nagus, and that one business mogul out of 400 was enough to overcome the pushback, AND that Ferenginar presumably only had one business-savvy female available (Ishka), making it necessary to gender reassign a male.

Say what you want about "Angel One" and Riker in "that outfit", it at least understood how the road from a sexist society to an equal one really works: through time, determination, hard work, and evolution. And it deals with leaders who are determined to keep it at a slow crawl.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Presumably, Molly herself would have disagreed with you, given her actions at the end.

But that was her choice, an intentional sacrifice. Molly making her own choice is different than her parents making it for her.

Doing it against her will would have been kind of like what they did to Tuvix. Or what Future Odo did in Children of Time.

 

[Farscape One]

I agree that the decision in "TIME'S ORPHAN" is not black and white.

Molly was facing institutionalization, which even in a cozy atmosphere like a Federation one, is still a cage for her. She would have been completely miserable, and quite possibly suicidal later. Definitely dangerous at first.

At the time, they had the choice of that or sending her back to where she felt happy and was free. I'm not a parent, but I'm very close with my niece and nephews. I most certainly want them to be happy. My mom has told many, many times throughout my life that all she cared about was my happiness, and she did things that would support that, even if some of them she might not have agreed with.

So I don't think the decision of Keiko and Miles was a dumb one. An emotional one, absolutely. But I can't fault that, given the circumstances. Keiko in particular was making a decision as a mother, and I honestly feel it was believable.

The only issue I have with the ending is it was the TNG method... they got to send her back, but still had their Molly return. As much as I was happy that Miles didn't have to suffer yet another horrible ending, it didn't feel like a DS9 episode in that way. And THAT is why I think it does belong on the bottom tier of season 6.

 

[Brobdingnag]

But that was her choice, an intentional sacrifice. Molly making her own choice is different than her parents making it for her.

Doing it against her will would have been kind of like what they did to Tuvix. Or what Future Odo did in Children of Time.

Molly was in no position to make a decision, so it was up to her parents, and boy did they make a bad one!