the mirror universe was more complex than let on in Crossover

[indolover]

The premise of Crossover essentially was that the humans there were being oppressed and dehumanised, and that they should fight for freedom.

But is it more complex than that? The Terran Empire was built on conquest, oppression and slavery. TOS and Enterprise both showed this. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right, but from the Intendant's view (well the mirror Kira) oppressing humans may be poetic justice, since the Terran Empire had annexed Bajor without ever being a serious threat to the Terrans.

I can imagine Regent Worf escaping from captivity, rallying up all other Klingons and claiming vengeance for their defeat, and there being a never-ending cycle of violence in that universe.

 

[Unicron]

I tend to think, personally, that one mistake DS9 made in the MU was getting rid of the Terran Empire and essentially sticking an alien version in its place. I think it would have been better if Kira and Bashir had been captured by an Empire that was crumbling under the weight of rebellion but wasn't yet defeated, and they had to choose the lesser of two evils to get home. Incidentally, I also like DC Comics' origin of the Empire from The Mirror Universe Saga:

Spoiler: MUS

The Empire arose on an Earth that lost the Romulan War in the 2100s and was briefly annexed by the Romulans, until a resistance movement succeeded in driving them off Earth. But the resistance didn't simply disappear after winning the fight, instead expanding into a political party that formed the basis for the imperial government. They promised that Earth would never be conquered again, and that now it was humans who would conquer.

This version is similar to the reality Worf encounters in "Parallels" where the Bajorans are aggressive and have conquered the Cardassians of that reality, though it's never made clear if the Bajorans are warlike here or if the resistance gained a greater range of political power than in our reality.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I also much preferred the TOS and DC comics mirror universe (and the "Dark Mirror" TNG novel) to the version in DS9. An evil version of the Federation, essentally doing what the Cardassians did to Bajor, would have been far more interesting than Kira, Ezri and Leeta all lezzing it up (not that I have a problem with that , it was the "watch our show, teenage boys!" low-class way it was done), OTT cartoonish vibe and utterly nonsensical stuff like Vic somehow being real.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

... would have been far more interesting than Kira, Ezri and Leeta all lezzing it up (not that I have a problem with that , it was the "watch our show, teenage boys!" low-class way it was done), OTT cartoonish vibe and utterly nonsensical stuff like Vic somehow being real.

Most of that didn't happen until Season 7 though. Yes, "The Emperor's New Cloak" was a bad episode, but it was just a single episode.

I'd say "Crossover" was a good episode, "Through the Looking Glass" and "Shattered Mirror" were still somewhat okay, and "Resurrection" and "The Emperor's New Cloak" sucked. They just didn't know when to stop IMO. Maybe it would have been for the best, had "Crossover" remained the only MU adventure.

 

[DevilEyes]

I tend to think, personally, that one mistake DS9 made in the MU was getting rid of the Terran Empire and essentially sticking an alien version in its place. I think it would have been better if Kira and Bashir had been captured by an Empire that was crumbling under the weight of rebellion but wasn't yet defeated, and they had to choose the lesser of two evils to get home.

There are other ways they could have done the Mirror Universe. But Crossover was a interesting take on it. I suppose they wanted to not just copy Mirror, Mirror, but continue the story with a twist. However, Crossover also pretty much killed the possibility of interesting further MU stories. Where they made a mistake was continuing the MU post-Crossover. Focusing on Humans-as-slaves and "evil" Bajorans (which I guess was in a way more interesting than "evil Mirror Humans" would have been on DS9, since Bajorans are really more of a focus of the show than Humans) might have been very interesting... but once the rebellion started, the situation pretty much amounted to "Human rebels against evil Klingons and Cardassians"... hardly a very compelling concept for a parallel universe.

 

[flemm]

Crossover is a Peter Allen Fields script and right up there with his other excellent efforts in the first two seasons of DS9: Progress, Duet, part of the Circle trilogy, Necessary Evil (perhaps others that I am forgetting).

He left the show after season 2 (illness I think?) which was a big loss, especially as far as dealing with the themes of Bajoran/Cardassian relations and the Occupation are concerned. It wasn't really until Ron Moore started to deal with these issues later on (The Darkness and the Light, Waltz) that the show was able to handle them credibly again.

Where does Crossover fit into this? The best comparison is with Necessary Evil: the MU DS9 is really quite similar to Terok Nor, the biggest differences being that the Intendant has replaced Dukat and the Terrans have replaced the Bajorans.

What Peter Allen Fields seems to be getting at in the episode (amongst other things) is that somewhere inside Kira Nerys there is a Gul Dukat: without the higher cause to fight for, without the spiritual dimension that her faith provides, Kira's energy and willpower serve her own ego, as is largely the case with Dukat in the regular universe. (With the Intendant being more of a caricature than the Dukat we know, as befits the somewhat outlandish nature of the MU).

Note all the similarities between the Intendant and Dukat: she claims to despise violence (and probably does on some level), while praising her own restraint in dealing with her victims; her patronizing attitude toward the Terran slaves; her Terran "comfort man" in the form of Mirror Sisko; she appreciates Odo's unique talents, like Dukat in Necessary Evil; she is incredibly narcissistic, and so on.

The flipside to this, of course, is that somewhere inside Gul Dukat there is a Kira Nerys: a freedom fighter, a believer, a soldier in the name of a higher cause. We later see glimpses of this in Return to Grace notably, and Covenant. This goes a long way toward explaining the odd sort of kinship between these characters: in other circumstances, each might have ended up like the other.

Crossover turns Necessary Evil and Duet upside down and puts Kira in the role of oppressor, which is a pretty brilliant choice as seen in this episode, though there are other interesting aspects to it as well, all of which are pretty much tossed aside by RHW and Ira Behr by the time the next crossover rolls around. (Shattered Mirror is not without its merits as pure spectacle, though.)

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I wouldn't have wanted to lose the wonderful irony of Kirk's intervention dooming the Terran Empire and bringing about the oppression of humanity, but I agree, the Terran Empire is too much fun to lose, especially "evil" Starfleet, which in retrospect is really the most entertaining part of the MU stories. Maybe the MU DS9 gang can resurrect the Terran Empire someday.

The flipside to this, of course, is that somewhere inside Gul Dukat there is a Kira Nerys: a freedom fighter, a believer, a soldier in the name of a higher cause. We later see glimpses of this in Return to Grace notably, and Covenant. This goes a long way toward explaining the odd sort of kinship between these characters: in other circumstances, each might have ended up like the other.

Which is why I really wanted an appearance by MU Dukat.

 

[DevilEyes]

Crossover is a Peter Allen Fields script and right up there with his other excellent efforts in the first two seasons of DS9: Progress, Duet, part of the Circle trilogy, Necessary Evil (perhaps others that I am forgetting).

He left the show after season 2 (illness I think?) which was a big loss, especially as far as dealing with the themes of Bajoran/Cardassian relations and the Occupation are concerned. It wasn't really until Ron Moore started to deal with these issues later on (The Darkness and the Light, Waltz) that the show was able to handle them credibly again.

Where does Crossover fit into this? The best comparison is with Necessary Evil: the MU DS9 is really quite similar to Terok Nor, the biggest differences being that the Intendant has replaced Dukat and the Terrans have replaced the Bajorans.

What Peter Allen Fields seems to be getting at in the episode (amongst other things) is that somewhere inside Kira Nerys there is a Gul Dukat: without the higher cause to fight for, without the spiritual dimension that her faith provides, Kira's energy and willpower serve her own ego, as is largely the case with Dukat in the regular universe. (With the Intendant being more of a caricature than the Dukat we know, as befits the somewhat outlandish nature of the MU).

Note all the similarities between the Intendant and Dukat: she claims to despise violence (and probably does on some level), while praising her own restraint in dealing with her victims; her patronizing attitude toward the Terran slaves; her Terran "comfort man" in the form of Mirror Sisko; she appreciates Odo's unique talents, like Dukat in Necessary Evil; she is incredibly narcissistic, and so on.

The flipside to this, of course, is that somewhere inside Gul Dukat there is a Kira Nerys: a freedom fighter, a believer, a soldier in the name of a higher cause. We later see glimpses of this in Return to Grace notably, and Covenant. This goes a long way toward explaining the odd sort of kinship between these characters: in other circumstances, each might have ended up like the other.

Crossover turns Necessary Evil and Duet upside down and puts Kira in the role of oppressor, which is a pretty brilliant choice as seen in this episode, though there are other interesting aspects to it as well, all of which are pretty much tossed aside by RHW and Ira Behr by the time the next crossover rolls around. (Shattered Mirror is not without its merits as pure spectacle, though.)

That's a brilliant analysis, and it's a pity that these interesting ideas that could have been explored were flushed down the toilet in favor in over-the-top silliness. Instead of making the Intendant into even more of a caricature, they could have tried to treat the Mirror Universe more seriously and make her a more layered character. It would be interesting to give her a real backstory and explore the questions - how did this other Kira turn out so different from the prime Kira, what were the things that made the difference.

The flipside to this, of course, is that somewhere inside Gul Dukat there is a Kira Nerys: a freedom fighter, a believer, a soldier in the name of a higher cause. We later see glimpses of this in Return to Grace notably, and Covenant. This goes a long way toward explaining the odd sort of kinship between these characters: in other circumstances, each might have ended up like the other.

Which is why I really wanted an appearance by MU Dukat.

That might have been interesting only if they didn't do it in such a lame and lazy way as they did in Trek literature, where MU Dukat is basically the same as canon Dukat, but one-dimensional and devoid of everything that made canon Dukat interesting. He even has basically the same relationship with MU Kira Nerys and MU Kira Meru, which makes no sense since MU Nerys is so different and the whole Bajor/Cardassia backstory is missing. (Although I've had some ideas for a MU backstory that would explain why they came to have this similar relationships but out of completely different motivations.) Some fanfics did it in a more interesting way by making MU Dukat a good guy and reversing his relationship with MU Kira.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

That might have been interesting only if they didn't do it in such a lame and lazy way as they did in Trek literature, where MU Dukat is basically the same as canon Dukat, but one-dimensional and devoid of everything that made canon Dukat interesting.

I'm a proponent of the Opposites theory of the MU, so that MU Dukat should be noble, unselfish, self-sacrificing and kind. Maybe a tad naive. Marc Alaimo would have had a blast with that.

Some fanfics did it in a more interesting way by making MU Dukat a good guy and reversing his relationship with MU Kira.

Exactamundo!

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

I think they made DS9's mirror universe as such as not just making the cast eeeevil, but also flipping around many of the situations. Humans as slaves on Terok Nor paralleling the Bajorans as slaves, the Bajorans/Klingons as the dominant power (Cardassians seemed to be the same in both universes... just like Tuvok. He's a universal constant). The human rebellion also had some allusions to the Maquis' rebellion against the Federation (but only superficially).

And it does seem like the quality of MU eps went down as the series went on. "Crossover" was excellent, "Through the Looking Glass" and "Shattered Mirror" were also very good, but "Resurrection" sucked and "The Emperor's New Cloak" was a Ferengi episode for crying out loud (not to mention had as huge a brain fart as TNG's "Final Mission", since earlier Alliance ships had cloaks). That basically co-opted it and took out any potency of it, but I suspect they intended that, as DS9 regular episodes got darker (the war), they made the MU ep the inverse.

DS9's MU (at least Seasons 2-4) was nice, the first real MU ep since "Mirror, Mirror". We got approximations for TNG ("Yesterday's Enterprise") and VOY ("Living Witness").

 

[flemm]

That's a brilliant analysis...

Where's that blush smiley...

Ah there it is...

... and it's a pity that these interesting ideas that could have been explored were flushed down the toilet in favor in over-the-top silliness.

Yeah, I can only imagine what it would have been like if Peter Allen Fields had written the follow-up. Crossover is all kinds of awesome: funny, creepy, with at least two interesting subtexts (Mirror, Mirror as "butterfly's wings," and Kira as the Prefect, *ahem* Intendant of Terok Nor).

Afterward the DS9 MU basically becomes the fantasy-fulfillment universe: for the regular characters, for the writers, even at times for certain groups of fans.

TtLG: Sisko goes to the MU to do a whole bunch of things he can't/won't do in the regular universe: sleep with Jadzia, punch Bashir, see Jennifer again.

Shattered Mirror: here the wish-fulfillment is largely a gigantic space battle with the Defiant weaving around DS9's pylons and so on, so it's relatively entertaining. Though, of course, we're in the "uninhibited universe," so get out your dog collars (I think it's in this one that mirror Worf has Garak in a dog collar).

Resurrection: A little something for the Kira-Bareil shippers, plus more of the Intendant because she is popular.

The Emporer's New Cloak: gurlz kissing gurlz lulz.

Basically the DS9 writers' repressed fantasies turn out to be really trite and predictable They do better work in the inhibited universe.

EDIT: To be precise, Crossover is scripted by PAF and Michael Piller, story by PAF. Due to the fact that PAF also wrote Progress, Duet and Necessary Evil, I tend to think he is responsable for most of the substance of this episode.

 

[I am not Spock]

^One would think Sisko's encounter with Jadzia in Through The Looking Glass would make his friendship with the Prime Universe Jadzia a bit... um, awkward. Did he ever tell her about that?