"The Menagerie" questions

[balls]

After the events of "The Menagerie" do you think the Federation opened up diplomatic relations with Talos IV? Did they strike General Order 7? During the events of the episode, where was Commodore Mendez? Was he off planet when the Enterprise reached the starbase? Did the Talosians do something to him (i.e. put a thought in his mind to go on leave to allow for the image of him to take his place)?

Also, do any of the TOS novels that are set around the time of this episode (and previous episodes) make any reference (even a slight one) of Spock's planning to take Captain Pike to Talos IV? It would seem like there'd be communications between the Talosians and Spock. Spock would need to do some preparation to make his plan work.

Thanks

 

[Christopher]

After the events of "The Menagerie" do you think the Federation opened up diplomatic relations with Talos IV? Did they strike General Order 7?

That depends on whom you ask. Most tie-ins have assumed that the ban on travel to Talos IV remained in place for some time afterward, but differ on how long. The novel Burning Dreams has the ban lifted around the 2320s. The DC comic "Door in the Cage" has it lifted around 2290. But the Marvel comic series Starfleet Academy had the death penalty still in place during the Dominion War.

During the events of the episode, where was Commodore Mendez? Was he off planet when the Enterprise reached the starbase? Did the Talosians do something to him (i.e. put a thought in his mind to go on leave to allow for the image of him to take his place)?

I figure that was really him interacting with Kirk on Starbase 11, but that by the time we saw Kirk in the shuttle, it was a fake Mendez with him. I guess they used illusions to make the real commodore miss the shuttle.

Also, do any of the TOS novels that are set around the time of this episode (and previous episodes) make any reference (even a slight one) of Spock's planning to take Captain Pike to Talos IV?

I think Burning Dreams is the only one that covers the events leading up to Spock's abduction/rescue of Pike.

 

[Metryq]

EDIT: Christopher types faster.

According to a message from Mendez (read by Uhura) at the end of the episode, he saw the images transmitted from Talos IV. We might assume Mendez was at the starbase the whole time and never left. Somewhere along the line, the Talosians made Kirk believe he was setting out with Mendez in a shuttlecraft. Once the Mendez image vanishes from the court, it is obvious he was never with Kirk.

Could the Talosians reach out across lightyears of space all the time? They appeared capable of it in "The Cage." Their experience with Pike probably dissuaded them from further tampering with humans. Too dangerous.

Would the Federation then open up relations with the Talosians following Pike's retirement to their care?

KEEPER: Your race would learn our power of illusion and destroy itself, too.

Unlikely, considering the Keeper's warning above. So even if the Federation and Starfleet had no prohibitions, I think the Talosians would keep humans away.

("The Cage" is very much like FORBIDDEN PLANET, only in this case the extra-terrestrials are still alive to warn humans away. No Id monsters this time.)

 

[Green Shirt]

I suppose the Talosians used illusion to allow Enterprise to escape from the Starbase scot free. If it were that important an issue, they would have sent a ship after them. If they couldn't catch up with them, they should have at least been able to overtake the shuttlecraft.

Unless they were the "only ship in the quadrant" - again.

 

[Metryq]

Unless they were the "only ship in the quadrant" - again.

Would that be the 27th quadrant?
(Lots of writers failed math class.)

 

[Marsden]

I got the feeling the Talosians were directing Spock all along having learned about Pike's state from the subspace chatter for the last few months. They don't want contact and are controlling the possiblity, nothing else is logical.

 

[fireproof78]

I think that the Talosians may have still been able to read Pike's thoughts, even from afar, after their experiments with him. They might have installed some sort of device (similar to an alien abduction scenario) to monitor him, even from afar. Spock's telepathic abilities may have then allowed the Talsoians to put suggestions in his mind. Spock's loyalty to his former captain probably would have taken over at that point.

There are several comics that have the Klingons discover Talos IV and use the illusion as a weapon against the Enterprise. The Klingons being more aggressive (hooray for alien stereotypes! ) seemed immune to the Talosian mind control.

Given the state of the galaxy, if I were the Talosians, I would not be advertising my powers either.

 

[Christopher]

There are several comics that have the Klingons discover Talos IV and use the illusion as a weapon against the Enterprise.

I can only think of one comic like that, DC's second annual by Mike W. Barr. We do see Klingons on Talos IV in "Door in the Cage" in DC's second series, but it's an illusion. Although Marvel's Telepathy War arc in their Starfleet Academy comic was about the Dominion trying to wipe out the Talosians and other telepaths in the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[MarsWeeps]

Could the Talosians reach out across lightyears of space all the time?

If they could fool Kirk into believing Mendez left with him on the shuttle, why couldn't they just put the illusion of Pike still in his room so that nobody knew he was gone?

 

[fireproof78]

There are several comics that have the Klingons discover Talos IV and use the illusion as a weapon against the Enterprise.

I can only think of one comic like that, DC's second annual by Mike W. Barr. We do see Klingons on Talos IV in "Door in the Cage" in DC's second series, but it's an illusion. Although Marvel's Telepathy War arc in their Starfleet Academy comic was about the Dominion trying to wipe out the Talosians and other telepaths in the Alpha Quadrant.

I must be misremembering, or it was in an anthology of comics of different TOS adventures. I can't seem to find the comic I'm thinking of, so it probably is the one you are referencing too.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The Klingons being more aggressive (hooray for alien stereotypes! ) seemed immune to the Talosian mind control.

Klingons being more aggressive than humans isn't a stereotype, it's a well-established fact. Pike was able to drive the Talosians out of his mind by thinking simple, aggressive, violent thoughts. The average TOS Klingon would be really, really good at that.

 

[Talos IV]

Did they strike General Order 7?

Something changed between "The Menagerie" and "Turnabout Intruder." In the latter:

SULU: The death penalty is forbidden. There's only one exception.
CHEKOV: General Order Four.

Or maybe just sloppy third-season writing.

 

[Timo]

Makes sense that the quarantine/death penalty on Talos IV would be lifted immediately after "The Menagerie". After all, the events proved that the quarantine was completely ineffective. That the Talosians didn't take over the galaxy despite their demonstrated ability to defeat the quarantine would have established one of two things:

1) They are nice guys, really, and can be trusted.
2) They already control the universe and everything is an illusion and Starfleet certainly shouldn't care as it can do zip about this.

Time to move on, then, and invent another hugely important reason to apply the death penalty.

This really has to happen about once in a decade anyway. Kirk encountered several things that should be kept secret from the rest of the Federation forever, lest all be lost, mankind doomed, no more apple pie etc. And Kirk is but one of Starfleet's explorers, and there were generations before him doing the same thing.

Basically, I trust that every General Order includes the option of applying death penalty for its violation, and Starfleet flips the execution switch for each GO in turn as they become relevant and then irrelevant again. Generally, something is encountered, declared so hazardous that access to it must be denied without even telling anybody why, and the death penalty is used as a deterrent; this something is dealt with; and either the something goes away, or is deemed to inevitable that Starfleet throws up its arms and chooses the next thing to worry about.

So, GO 7, on Quarantining Planets; subclause 7.4.221, Approaching Planets Quarantined Without Telling Why; death penalty in force between "The Cage" and "The Menagerie". GO 4, on Committing Acts of War; subclause 4.2.73, Flipping the Bird on Romulans; death penalty in force between "The Major Disaster" (from the famous adventures of USS Insignificant) and "The Satisfactory Resolution" (the same). GO 9, on Investigating Mysteries Against the Will of Locals... You get the picture. The GO must be about something General; the specific violation must deal with something specific, and generally also obscure and rare or the death penalties wouldn't flip on and off so lightly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

The Klingons being more aggressive (hooray for alien stereotypes! ) seemed immune to the Talosian mind control.

Klingons being more aggressive than humans isn't a stereotype, it's a well-established fact. Pike was able to drive the Talosians out of his mind by thinking simple, aggressive, violent thoughts. The average TOS Klingon would be really, really good at that.

My comment was meant as sarcasm. I know that Klingons are very good at violent and aggressive behavior.

 

[balls]

Could the Talosians reach out across lightyears of space all the time?

If they could fool Kirk into believing Mendez left with him on the shuttle, why couldn't they just put the illusion of Pike still in his room so that nobody knew he was gone?

Mind...blown

 

[Metryq]

Could the Talosians reach out across lightyears of space all the time?

If they could fool Kirk into believing Mendez left with him on the shuttle, why couldn't they just put the illusion of Pike still in his room so that nobody knew he was gone?

Mind...blown

What if the Talosians made Kirk, Spock, Mendez and all of Starfleet think they'd accepted Pike into their care—while only making him invisible—just to put the Federated worlds off their guard for the real invasion? Or what if Pike's original adventure never really happened, he was merely made to believe it happened because someone else didn't want to share the best beach front property in the galaxy?

In reality, we all believe it was only a TV episode broadcast in the 1960s, when it was an actual encounter and today's date is in the 2700s.

 

[GNDN18]

The Commodore was never aboard the vessel. His presence there and in the shuttlecraft was an illusion. In fact, the entire universe is part of Tommy Westphall's dream.

 

[Maurice]

Actually, the entire premise is illogical. If the Talosians can create such illusions why not just create the illusion for Kirk that they have Special Orders to take Pike to Talos IV, no questions asked?

 

[balls]

The Commodore was never aboard the vessel. His presence there and in the shuttlecraft was an illusion. In fact, the entire universe is part of Tommy Westphall's dream.

St. Elsewhere reference-solid.

 

[kirkfan]

Actually, the entire premise is illogical. If the Talosians can create such illusions why not just create the illusion for Kirk that they have Special Orders to take Pike to Talos IV, no questions asked?

Maybe the Talosians like drama...