The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Mojochi]

From what we know, the ship's computer doesn't seem sentient, but I can see her point. I am polite with real life AIs too >_>

Interestingly enough, I always see it as less about what you're being respectful to, & more about a reflection of your own internal workings, behaviors, manners etc... I don't just treat people/things respectfully, based on a determination of them qualifying for it. I do it, because it's what I expect of me. It's got nothing to do with them.

I keep thinking she was trying to help in her own harsh, blunt way.

It's not even just the context of the scene, but the context of the whole concern. Maddox is the one who's said "Box on Wheels". When she says "Toaster" she is very possibly just framing her findings such that it's as clear as possible that his attitudes have some kind of legal support, & if someone were to want it to be challenged, they are doing a disservice to the prospect, if they don't frame it just as harshly

You want it to come off as a slap in the face, if you think people ought to seriously object. I don't find Louvois to be morally suspect in this... Less than capable? possibly. Nakamura on the other hand....

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

I don't just treat people/things respectfully, based on a determination of them qualifying for it. I do it, because it's what I expect of me.

*feels less alone*

 

[Discofan]

I think the important thing is not being a toaster... it's not being toast!

 

[Mojochi]

You know, I bet if Data made you toast. It'd be the best fucking toast you ever had

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

You know, I bet if Data made you toast. It'd be the best fucking toast you ever had

Oh yes, definitely ! He'd put total dedication to it, after he read a complete essay about the history of toast and their recipes in the UPF's cultures. He could even make Vulcan toasts, Klingon toasts, Ferengi toasts...Every breakfast would be a new discovery !

 

[DonIago]

He'd make the toast in the most scientifically precise method possible, and it would doubtless be adequate toast...but it would also be passionless toast, like one might get from a replicator.

At least until Data had his emotion chip installed.

 

[Mojochi]

He'd make the toast in the most scientifically precise method possible, and it would doubtless be adequate toast...but it would also be passionless toast, like one might get from a replicator.

At least until Data had his emotion chip installed.

He's clearly more than just a garden variety replicaotr

You owe me one Samarian Sunset. Served in the traditional style. As only you can make it, Data...

Because he couldn't make a uniquely artistic recipe for something, doesn't mean he couldn't make the best something you ever had

 

[DonIago]

Obviously he's more than a replicator, but in the series there was at least one occasion where he was critiqued for the fact that he'd done a very literal reproduction of something, but not a passionate or creative one.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

(...)but it would also be passionless toast, like one might get from a replicator.
(...)
he'd done a very literal reproduction of something, but not a passionate or creative one.

Excuse me ? ?

In The Ensigns of Command :

PICARD: The good doctor was kind enough to provide me with a recording of your concert. Your performance shows feeling.
DATA: As I have recently reminded others, sir, I have no feeling.
PICARD: It's hard to believe. Your playing is quite beautiful.
DATA: Strictly speaking, sir, it is not my playing. It is a precise imitation of the techniques of Jascha Heifetz and Trenka Bronken.
PICARD: Is there nothing of Data in what I'm hearing? You see, you chose the violinists. Heifetz and Bronken have radically different styles, different techniques, yet you combined them successfully.
DATA: I suppose I have learned to be creative, sir, when necessary.

In Inheritance :

JULIANA: I suppose there's a certain amount of vanity involved, considering that giving you a creative aspect was my idea. Your father didn't really see the point. He thought that since you didn't have emotions, there would be no real need for you to express yourself. Somehow I had the feeling the opposite would be true.
DATA: I do not know for certain, but I believe it is during my creative endeavours that I come closest to experiencing what it must be like to be human.
JULIANA: Well, I'm glad I insisted.
DATA: As am I.

From Schisms :

A sunset bloom
Then we sat on the sand for some time and observed
How the oceans that cover the world were perturbed
By the tides from the orbiting moon overhead
"How relaxing the sound of the waves is," you said.
I began to expound upon tidal effects
When you asked me to stop, looking somewhat perplexed
So I did not explain why the sunset turns red
And we watched the occurrence in silence instead.

Should I continue ?

 

[Mojochi]

Obviously he's more than a replicator, but in the series there was at least one occasion where he was critiqued for the fact that he'd done a very literal reproduction of something, but not a passionate or creative one.

My point is that dispassion is not the same as, nor necessarily results in mediocrity. He makes things that are better than adequate. He makes things that are excellent, & he does, in his own way, apply some artistry too. Some arts are more dependent on the emotional awareness of the artist than others, poetry & music for example, (Which are the arts of his people claimed to find less than inspiring) as opposed to gardening/horticulture, which is just arranging plants. I bet if Data made a garden, it would be among the most beautiful you'd ever seen or smelled

Because his cuisine wouldn't be the most artistically profound & emotional experience you'd ever witnessed doesn't mean it would be a boring dish. It would still probably be among the best things you've ever eaten

 

[DonIago]

You're taking what I said out of context. I said what I meant.

 

[Mojochi]

You're taking what I said out of context. I said what I meant.

You said adequate, & passionless, like one might get from a replicator

I'm just disagreeing with that assertion, & assert that while he may display an absense of human levels of passion, some of his art is still quite excellent. Data may miss the mark on poetry, but as a musician, I find his playing very beautiful, beautiful enough that it made Sarek cry lol

As a painter, he's had very profound breakthroughs. I see no reason why if Troi thinks his Samarian Sunset is perfect enough that no one else could come close, that he couldn't also make some incredible culinary delights

 

[DonIago]

To be sure, in my original post I was referring to toast, and it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. I mean, it's toast; AFAIK there's not a lot of room for creativity there to begin with.

I can't pin down episodes, but I'm pretty sure there was a time when Data was told that his music-playing was technically flawless but that it lacked passion. That isn't to say he didn't get better, nor did I ever claim that he couldn't or didn't improve.

Given that Sarek was suffering from Bendii Syndrome at the time, I'm not sure his crying is really a good point of reference. Also we don't have any reason to believe that he was a particularly discerning music listener.

Or maybe he cried because he found it tragic that Data yearned to play music well but was limited by his nature.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

I can't pin down episodes, but I'm pretty sure there was a time when Data was told that his music-playing was technically flawless but that it lacked passion.

He says in The Ensigns of Command that he received such critics :

DATA: Captain. Doctor. I am honoured by your presence, but may I suggest you attend the second concert.
CRUSHER: Why, Data?
DATA: Ensign Ortiz will perform the violin part. My rendition will be less enjoyable.
PICARD: Oh?
DATA: Although I am technically proficient, according to my fellow performers, I lack soul.

...which Picard objects about later in the episode :

PICARD: The good doctor was kind enough to provide me with a recording of your concert. Your performance shows feeling.
DATA: As I have recently reminded others, sir, I have no feeling.
PICARD: It's hard to believe. Your playing is quite beautiful.
DATA: Strictly speaking, sir, it is not my playing. It is a precise imitation of the techniques of Jascha Heifetz and Trenka Bronken.
PICARD: Is there nothing of Data in what I'm hearing? You see, you chose the violinists. Heifetz and Bronken have radically different styles, different techniques, yet you combined them successfully.

As @Mojochi once stated, Data's creativity and uniqueness can be seen at the intersection of his choice.

 

[Mojochi]

We also can't assume everything that comes from a replicator is unexceptional, or merely an adequate offering. It's a tool, & I'm sure some things it can produce are just as good as anything could be

The whole thing came from sort of a joke anyhow, in that someone would reduce Data to the mere mechanisms of a toaster, & what an awesome toaster he'd be lol

He's programmed dozens of recipes for his cat, some of which the cat likes, & some not. I have no problems figuring that if he'd put his mind to it, his toast would be outstanding toast

 

[TribbleFeeder]

(It’s not Trek obviously) but the entire HBO show WestWorld is about this concept specifically—whether androids have consciousness or sentient. It gives some insight into the Data conundrum.

Personally I feel that once a being can feel pain they’ve crossed the threshold into being sentient. Only living things are able to experience pain (emotional or physical).

 

[Marynator]

(It’s not Trek obviously) but the entire HBO show WestWorld is about this concept specifically—whether androids have consciousness or sentient. It gives some insight into the Data conundrum.

Have you ever seen Humans? You can find it on Amazon Prime if you haven't, it's also about budding android sentience but I felt it was much better than Westworld in my view, I found it to be so very delightful and enjoyable to watch, with wonderful characters I really cared so much about.

I feel with Data's art, my question would be is he just copying someone else's work or is he creating something new with purpose? Like I do believe some of his paintings are definitely original and are expressive of his thoughts and feelings that no one else would've created, so to me that really says a lot about his creativity.

 

[TribbleFeeder]

Have you ever seen Humans? You can find it on Amazon Prime if you haven't, it's also about budding android sentience but I felt it was much better than Westworld in my view, I found it to be so very delightful and enjoyable to watch, with wonderful characters I really cared so much about.

I feel with Data's art, my question would be is he just copying someone else's work or is he creating something new with purpose? Like I do believe some of his paintings are definitely original and are expressive of his thoughts and feelings that no one else would've created, so to me that really says a lot about his creativity.

I’ve never seen Humans but I’m definitely gonna check it out now that you mention it!

The ability to create something original is a really good point. I was thinking about this for a while one day because I went to college for art and I don’t think any of my work is truly original. Most of it is techniques from artists I liked over the years with themes I probably picked up through literature. Ideas are such a hard concept to grasp. I end up going down a rabbit hole of “is anything I think or create actually new?” And in that way I’m no different from Data haha

 

[DonIago]

IIRC Data's original painting was very literal...if he was painting a bowl of fruit, the painting would be essentially a photograph of the bowl of fruit.

I know once he started dreaming Data's painting got a lot more surreal.

I think there's a mid-point where he's doing paintings of Spot for instance, but in the style of specific artists. I'm not sure whether "X in the style of Y" necessarily constitutes creativity even if the final work is inspired/entertaining. Not to do Data a disservice, but it reminds me of going to a burger restaurant where you have a choice of X types of meat, Y toppings, Z other options...whatever you end up with is still going to be circumscribed by the universe of what they offer.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

whatever you end up with is still going to be circumscribed by the universe of what they offer.

Isn't that the case for pretty much everyone and everything ? We're basically always circumscribed by what we are mentally capable of conceptualizing.