The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Horta are a naturally occurring species - they weren't "built" like Data was. So Louvois would have no reason to object to them.

There's no evidence she's racist or speciesist. She wouldn't even have allowed the hearing if it were otherwise. She and Maddox believed that Data was not a life form, that's where the trouble started.

 

[Skipper]

What else was Louvois supposed to do in this case, exactly? Unilaterally disregard Starfleet jurisprudence?

Acts of Cumberland aren't exactly Starfleet jurisprudence because they were passed in the early 21st century. And Starfleet until that moment treated Data as a human being, because I'm quite sure computers can't attend the Academy, join Star Fleet, get a rank, give orders to other people and get medals.

So, according to Star Fleet, Data has the same rights of every other sentient being.

 

[Nakita Akita]

So, what changed her mind? Because in the hearing Picard did a beatiful speech, but Data was still a machine. And if there was some "unique" quality in Data which can reverse her initial judgment, why didn't she even try to talk to him?

And she said an interesting thing after the hearing:

This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those.

With what the case was dealing was evident from the beginning. So, If she wasn't competent after the hearing, she wasn't competent before. Is she were only a bit honest she should have said something like "Do I really have to decide whether this individual is a living being with all his rights? Sorry, we pause everything and wait for more competent people on the subject".

The show was written in the USA, I'm guessing the screenplay etc was completed predominantly by USA citizens.
Rarely does a defendant get to speak with the judge in the USA. Probably even less so in the military.
I think you might have left off some of the quote of what she said.
I think the entire issue was whether or not Data was sentient.
Are any of us? I think that was the bigger question to leave the veiwer with.

 

[DonIago]

Acts of Cumberland aren't exactly Starfleet jurisprudence because they were passed in the early 21st century. And Starfleet until that moment treated Data as a human being, because I'm quite sure computers can't attend the Academy, join Star Fleet, get a rank, give orders to other people and get medals.

So, according to Star Fleet, Data has the same rights of every other sentient being.

The fact that she cites them as precedent either indicates that they do in fact apply reasonably as a precedent, or that she's a terrible JAG. We don't otherwise have strong evidence to suspect she's ignorant of law, so the former seems more likely to me.

And I'm pretty sure you don't want to get into how the rights of people can be assumed to be X until a court determines them to be Y. But if you do, I'll warn you ahead of time that I'm a gay Jew.

 

[Mojochi]

The fact that she cites them as precedent either indicates that they do in fact apply reasonably as a precedent, or that she's a terrible JAG. We don't otherwise have strong evidence to suspect she's ignorant of law, so the former seems more likely to me.

Can we assume that having been in & out of Starfleet & being assigned to a terrible post, out in the middle of nowhere, that she can't even staff in a timely manner, & isn't competent enough to arrange a teleconference, like @Mr. Laser Beam suggested, she may actually be a crappy bottom rung JAG? lol

 

[Skipper]

Can we assume that having been in & out of Starfleet & being assigned to a terrible post, out in the middle of nowhere, that she can't even staff in a timely manner, & isn't competent enough to arrange a teleconference, like @Mr. Laser Beam suggested, she may actually be a crappy bottom rung JAG? lol

You know, it seems your theory is not too dissimilar from the story told in the @Christopher's novel The Buried Age...

By 2355, Louvois held the rank of Commander. That year, she was the prosecutor in the court martial of Captain Picard held at Starbase 32 following the loss of the USS Stargazer after the Battle of Maxia. In her zeal to show that she could prosecute Picard without bias, she overcompensated by relentlessly attacking Picard and even brought up something Picard had said in bed. She was removed from the case, given a formal reprimand, and told to submit to a court of inquiry to determine any further charges. In response, Louvois resigned her commission. (TNG novel: The Buried Age)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Frankly, given that the episode establishes that non-lawyers can be used in formal hearings, it would have made more sense for Admiral Nakamura to act as judge and Phillipa Louvois to act as either prosecutor or defence. There should also have been a conversation about why her Ensign wasn't being either.

I also think it's slightly odd that the Enterprise doesn't have at least a legal assistant or three to help with first contacts and diplomatic negotiations that could have been co-opted into helping.

 

[Skipper]

I also think it's slightly odd that the Enterprise doesn't have at least a legal assistant or three to help with first contacts and diplomatic negotiations that could have been co-opted into helping.

They don't even have a linguist. During the "Darmok" episode Troy and Data had to fill this role.

 

[DonIago]

Can we assume that having been in & out of Starfleet & being assigned to a terrible post, out in the middle of nowhere, that she can't even staff in a timely manner, & isn't competent enough to arrange a teleconference, like @Mr. Laser Beam suggested, she may actually be a crappy bottom rung JAG? lol

Does that make Picard a crappy captain or Data a crappy know-it-all for having neglected to suggest something as obvious to us as a teleconference?

I was rather under the impression that the post was newly-established, not necessarily "out in the middle of nowhere".

Of course, Deep Space Nine started out that way as well.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

According to Nakamura Starbase 174 had been recently (re)established near the Neutral Zone to potentially respond to "disturbing news from both sides of the Zone" if needed. So it wasn't 'out in the middle of nowhere' as such, but equally not within 'hustle and bustle of the Federation 'core' as it were.

 

[Herbert]

I really wish people would stop calling Maddox an asshole and other such things. He may have had a view of Data that many of us didn't share, but there's plenty of people on these forums willing to call The Doctor or Moriarty or other lifeforms that we've seen in Trek non-sentient, and I don't see them being referred to in such a manner.

If you were taken to meet an android in this day and age, would you assume it's sentient and deserves the right to self-determination? We'd had much more exposure to Data than Maddox, and I think he deserves points for acknowledging that he was wrong in the end. And clearly Data himself didn't harbor a grudge. In fact, in the novelverse Maddox ultimately goes on to defend B-4's right to self-determination.

Ignorance can be cured, but you're unlikely to achieve anything productive by writing it off from the outset, so why not assume a little good faith on his part?

I don't have an issue calling a fictional character an asshole. Jellico was an asshole. Admiral Nechayev was an asshole. Karnas was an asshole. Herbert was an asshole. Star Trek is full of assholes.

 

[Mojochi]

Does that make Picard a crappy captain or Data a crappy know-it-all for having neglected to suggest something as obvious to us as a teleconference?

Nah, probably just a crappy lawyer. Lol

I was rather under the impression that the post was newly-established, not necessarily "out in the middle of nowhere".

Well if we're being technical, nothing is out in the middle of nowhere. Everything is somewhere. I just meant out on the edge of Federation space. A shit assignment for someone who use to try high ranking Court martials, before whatever drove her out altogether

I was only asking. Isn't plausible, based on what's presented, to think she may be a bottom rung JAG now? People jump to assume Jellico isn't a good captain with less to back it, just because he's less than pleasant to work for that week

 

[Kor]

They were way out by the Neutral Zone. They weren't in close enough communications range to any other Starfleet/Federation installations for a real-time conference call.

Kor

 

[DonIago]

I suppose what I'd find a bit surprising is that there apparently weren't any options to request a change of venue given the gravity of the question.

Then again, there wasn't time within the episode to request a change of venue and have it shot down. Perhaps by Nakamura, which would have established him as the real villain of the episode.

 

[DonIago]

I don't have an issue calling a fictional character an asshole. Jellico was an asshole. Admiral Nechayev was an asshole. Karnas was an asshole. Herbert was an asshole. Star Trek is full of assholes.

I never said I had any issue calling fictional characters assholes in general.

 

[Mojochi]

I suppose what I'd find a bit surprising is that there apparently weren't any options to request a change of venue given the gravity of the question.

Then again, there wasn't time within the episode to request a change of venue and have it shot down. Perhaps by Nakamura, which would have established him as the real villain of the episode.

Honestly? He's being pretty shady anyhow, all nonchalant about it. He's at least complicit in wanting to make this happen. It's no coincidence imho. When has any officer even been asked to submit to anything this precarious, & Ill-defined? "He's here to do some work on your android"? That'd be like the visiting doc in Ethics coming aboard, & some admiral says "She's here to do some work on your chief engineer's eyes" They know Data is an officer, & not just some random ship amenity like a fucking shuttle craft. It's shady as shit

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

"He's here to do some work on your android"? That'd be like the visiting doc in Ethics coming aboard, & some admiral says "She's here to do some work on your chief engineer's eyes" They know Data is an officer, & not just some random ship amenity like a fucking shuttle craft.

Ah ! Thank you ! So at least, I'm not the only one who thought it was totally disrespectful and creepy to talk about Data like he's just some ship material, especially like if he wasn't here...I always have the same reaction to that line : "eerr...have you ever noticed he's in the room ??!! "

 

[Herbert]

 

[DonIago]

^A bit simplistic, but yes. People were disrespectful to Data because, as the episode makes abundantly clear, from their perspective they had no reason to be respectful. I think Lwaxana was the only person we ever saw be respectful to the ship's computer, to a point.

I mean, Kirk didn't even try to hail the Doomsday Machine before he tried to blow it up.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

People were disrespectful to Data because, as the episode makes abundantly clear, from their perspective they had no reason to be respectful.

Which is basically the same kind of stupid perspective racist, sexist or ableist people have : "you're different from me, so I owe you no respect"

Lwaxana was the only person we ever saw be respectful to the ship's computer, to a point.

From what we know, the ship's computer doesn't seem sentient, but I can see her point. I am polite with real life AIs too >_>

Was it necessary ?...Especially quoted out of context : I keep thinking she was trying to help in her own harsh, blunt way.