The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Nakita Akita]

To me, I look at it like the military, I know, Starfleet isn't the military....
But like any huge bureaucracy, anything can be made to seem like a good idea to someone in charge. That's all it took for Maddox to get the ball rolling on his plan to go down in history as the guy that made the Robot Army That Saved The Federation.
Or whatever his delusional dream was.
I've worked in big companies, the military and even governmental agencies. Having my past experience, I have seen some of the stupidest ideas get funding, expedited, etc. just because the initiator has the ear of a high enough "ranking" person.

From my perspective the rushed trial, the preposterous decision that suddenly Data was a toaster, the lack of resources for a trial all seemed reasonable to me.

 

[Discofan]

It's funny that they call Data a "toaster" given that the replicator made toasters obsolete for several generations then. It would be like us calling a robot a "catapult" or a "crossbow" which were the most elaborate mechanisms only a few centuries ago. It reminds me of Mccoy in STID talking about a getaway car, at a time when money had been obsolete for more than a century, making stick ups equally obsolete.

 

[Nyotarules]

It's funny that they call Data a "toaster" given that the replicator made toasters obsolete for several generations then. It would be like us calling a robot a "catapult" or a "crossbow" which were the most elaborate mechanisms only a few centuries ago. It reminds me of Mccoy in STID talking about a getaway car, at a time when money had been obsolete for more than a century, making stick ups equally obsolete.

If the Kelvin verse has the same economy as TOS then money is still around

 

[Kor]

To a degree, little references like that need to be kept on a level that is relate-able to the viewing audience.

Kor

 

[Nakita Akita]

It's funny that they call Data a "toaster" given that the replicator made toasters obsolete for several generations then. It would be like us calling a robot a "catapult" or a "crossbow" which were the most elaborate mechanisms only a few centuries ago. It reminds me of Mccoy in STID talking about a getaway car, at a time when money had been obsolete for more than a century, making stick ups equally obsolete.

Also there was the episode where Riker cooked scrambled eggs for everyone.
Homemade food was considers the best.
So toasting some homemade bread might be like like making sugar plums or candied rose petals is today.

 

[Kor]

Also there was the episode where Riker cooked scrambled eggs for everyone.
Homemade food was considers the best.
So toasting some homemade bread might be like like making sugar plums or candied rose petals is today.

I think you triple-posted there.

Kor

 

[Timo]

A decision 20 years out of date, and preceding major discoveries about the origin and nature of Data, should take precedence over current evaluations?

Naturally this decision would be the default position against which the arguments would be made. But the old committee would be at a disadvantage in said arguments, having judged on less complete evidence. If it turns out that a candidate has been accepted on flawed or even falsified premises, generally a renewed evaluation process is needed at a minimum before said candidate can keep on serving, right?

Of course, the major discoveries in early TNG would not work against Data getting evaluated as sentient, sapient, self-aware, bona fide, whatever. But the evaluation would have to take place, and this is where Maddox can and should drive his wedge.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Skipper]

A decision 20 years out of date, and preceding major discoveries about the origin and nature of Data, should take precedence over current evaluations?

I'm sorry, what current evaluation? The Jag didn't evaluate Data at all. She didn't even talk to him before agreeing with Maddox.

 

[DonIago]

Actually she ruled that based on the Acts of Cumberland Data was a machine, the property of Starfleet, and therefore couldn't resign or refuse to undergo Maddox's procedure.

What we don't know is what the Acts of Cumberland actually say. But she apparently was basing her ruling on precedent.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

she ruled that based on the Acts of Cumberland Data was a machine, the property of Starfleet

That was what I meant when I said she probably didn't have any prejudice against Data but had to rule according to the sole elements she had. Based only on precedent, she had no other logical and legal solution.

 

[Skipper]

So, what changed her mind? Because in the hearing Picard did a beatiful speech, but Data was still a machine. And if there was some "unique" quality in Data which can reverse her initial judgment, why didn't she even try to talk to him?

And she said an interesting thing after the hearing:

This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those.

With what the case was dealing was evident from the beginning. So, If she wasn't competent after the hearing, she wasn't competent before. Is she were only a bit honest she should have said something like "Do I really have to decide whether this individual is a living being with all his rights? Sorry, we pause everything and wait for more competent people on the subject".

 

[Mojochi]

What we don't know is what the Acts of Cumberland actually say. But she apparently was basing her ruling on precedent.

We do know the precedent was passed in the early part of the 21st century, & there'd been no need to amend it, because it had never been applied to an android. It long predates pretty much any android ever shown on Star Trek

I actually have to agree, that Picard's case isn't terribly impressive. Riker's is far more convincing. I'm left to assume that deep down, she knew her ruling on precedent was in dire need of challenging, because it was so outdated. Maddox, honestly never had a chance, nor should he have had. The precedent upon which the whole thing is based is so outdated as to probably be laughable

 

[Skipper]

I'm left to assume that deep down, she knew her ruling on precedent was in dire need of challenging, because it was so outdated.

Yes, but challenged on what basis? After the hearing Data was still a machine. And if the Data's "humanity" or soul or whatever was something that could influence her decision and help him, why she didn't investigate it before the hearing? Because it was evident that everyone (except Maddox) considered Data a sentient being.

We have two options here: she didn't know how to do her job, or she was in bad faith. No surprise that Picard had such a grudge against her at the beginning of the episode. Probably she messed up big time during the martial court about the USS Stargazer.

 

[Nyotarules]

^All living beings are machines so Maddox had a flawed premise as well, he was a classic humancentric. If the Q came along and decided not to recognise humans as sentient beings because they were just biological machines (ugly bags of mostly water lol) so lets switch them off so we can study them. I wonder if Maddox would have volunteered for that?

 

[Skipper]

^All living beings are machines so Maddox had a flawed premise as well, he was a classic humancentric. If the Q came along and decided not to recognise humans as sentient beings because they were just biological machines (ugly bags of mostly water lol) so lets switch off so we can study them. I wonder if Maddox would have volunteered for that?

Maddox was blinded by his research. What was Louvois's excuse?

 

[Nyotarules]

Maddox was blinded by his research. What was Louvois's excuse?

space sickness

 

[Nyotarules]

Its a shame Earth does not have money in the 24th century, if I was Data I would have slapped Starfleet with a speciest lawsuit faster than you could say warp drive!

 

[DonIago]

I feel it's important to clarify the chain of events as depicted in the episode.

Maddox declares his intention to disassemble Data
Picard refuses to allow Data to submit himself to the procedure (what if Data had wanted to submit?)
Maddox furnishes transfer orders forcing Data to be reassigned
Louvois notes that Data can resign to prevent the transfer (for everyone noting that she's the villain, take note)
Data resigns
Maddox challenges Data's right to resign on the grounds that he's Starfleet property
Louvois agrees, citing the Acts of Cumberland as precedent
Picard challenges her ruling, leading to the hearing.

What else was Louvois supposed to do in this case, exactly? Unilaterally disregard Starfleet jurisprudence? She appears to have given Picard awareness of all the options he had available. If she had simply said "Data's obviously sentient, so screw off, Maddox", then a) Maddox probably would have appealed, possibly taking us where we ended up anyway, and b) she may have been disciplined for ignoring the very laws she's supposed to be upholding.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm still flummoxed by Louvois' insistence that she had a shortage of legal staff. Don't they do teleconferencing in the 24th century? She could have had any lawyer in the Federation ready to assist, and they wouldn't even need to leave their workplaces.

 

[Nyotarules]

If Maddox had met a Horta, would he insist the being was nothing more than a moving rock and not sentient? Maybe the Horta left the Federation for this same reason?