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The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

There a two Myriad Universes stories that are relevant to the "Data situation".

Echoes and Refractions: Brave New World which among other things, imagines a timeline where Maddox succeeded in making more Soong-type androids.

and

Shattered Light: The Embrace of Cold Architects where the Lal situation turns out differently with Captain Riker in Data's corner rather than Picard.
 
I watched the extended version of The Measure of A Man a few weeks ago(the season 2 bluray includes the original version and an extended cut). I was surprised how much the deleted scenes enhanced the quality of the episide. There is a great scene where Maddox crashes Data's party in Ten Forward and he makes some sarcastic suggestion that Data should become his own carnival act and Riker throws him out. There is a nice moment where Riker asks Troi if she feels anything from Data. I also liked the scene where Riker visits Picard fencing to let him know he is going to do his utmost to win.
Okay,
Picard fencing?
Okay, buying a blueRay player and the blueRay set.
Thanks,
There goes my money I was going to put into 'savings' this month:wah:
:lol:
 
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I am glad that the Maddox "circus freak" scene did not make the original episode cut. It defeats the "lesson learned" bit when Captain Phillipa Louvois observes that he didn't refer to Data as an "it" for once. Maddox also seems to have finally been impressed with Data, overall. The deleted party scene is just there in case "they" felt that audiences were too stupid to get that Riker and Data were in like Flynn, by the end. That's the insult that's inexcusable, rather than anything Maddox might've been written to say. It belonged to be left on the cutting room floor and I'm glad that it was, in the original thing. Picard's fencing scene is unnecessary, but fine. Maddox was an asshole, I'm sure everyone got that with scenes like him entering Data's quarters unannounced and shit like that. I know that there has to be SOME dumbing down for the unwashed masses, but it's not like The Measure of a Man was necessarily subtle about what it had to say, or how it went about saying it ...
 
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I really wish people would stop calling Maddox an asshole and other such things. He may have had a view of Data that many of us didn't share, but there's plenty of people on these forums willing to call The Doctor or Moriarty or other lifeforms that we've seen in Trek non-sentient, and I don't see them being referred to in such a manner.

If you were taken to meet an android in this day and age, would you assume it's sentient and deserves the right to self-determination? We'd had much more exposure to Data than Maddox, and I think he deserves points for acknowledging that he was wrong in the end. And clearly Data himself didn't harbor a grudge. In fact, in the novelverse Maddox ultimately goes on to defend B-4's right to self-determination.

Ignorance can be cured, but you're unlikely to achieve anything productive by writing it off from the outset, so why not assume a little good faith on his part?
 
We'd had much more exposure to Data than Maddox, and I think he deserves points for acknowledging that he was wrong in the end.

Even if I do agree that Maddox wasn't exactly motivated by evil plans and that he acted more out of ignorance, I don't agree at all about the fact we should give him a medal because he finally accepted what was evident on the first place. That sounds a bit like going around throwing good points and congrats to any guy who's been sexist 99% of his life and finally came to accept that women aren't mere objects...This is obviously good that they changed, but I won't give them a damn medal of honor for having understood what was obvious from the start !
 
Data has rank, he's won decorations as a Starfleet officer, he mingles with the crew, he has authority to order juniors about, many of the crew call him his friend. I certainly don't befriend a glorified GPS or give it medals, lulz. Data strikes me as simply another alien in Star Trek's diverse range of interesting and amusing alien life.

Maddox arrives, hey bud, you're a toaster, pal. I'm gonna dismember you, so I can make millions of you. Don't like it? Tough.

They wouldn't do that to Mr. Spock would they? Starfleet really shouldn't be this schizophrenic about Data's standing.

But Maddox does deserve cred for arriving at a new understanding. I think redemption, when sincere, is all good and positive.
 
Even if I do agree that Maddox wasn't exactly motivated by evil plans and that he acted more out of ignorance, I don't agree at all about the fact we should give him a medal because he finally accepted what was evident on the first place. That sounds a bit like going around throwing good points and congrats to any guy who's been sexist 99% of his life and finally came to accept that women aren't mere objects...This is obviously good that they changed, but I won't give them a damn medal of honor for having understood what was obvious from the start !

I don't recall saying I thought he deserved a medal, just that I didn't think he was an asshole.

And how exactly is it evident that Data is sentient versus merely the sum of his programming, doing what Soong's code tells him to do? Or does it not matter whether that's the case?

To be sure, I think Data deserves the right to choose for himself; I'm just saying, I can see where Maddox was coming from even if I don't like it and thought his social skils were lacking.

Did anyone think the Exocomps were sentient at the beginning of "The Quality of Life"? At what point did Moriarty become sentient? The Doctor? The Crystalline Entity? Tuvix? The Doomsday Machine? The Borg? When is Maddox allowed to come in and take one of these entities for deconstruction and possible termination, and when does that become perhaps an act of murder?

"Measure of a Man" is great because it acknowledges that there aren't easy answers to these questions, not because it says "Look at Data, he's obviously sentient!"
 
Data has rank, he's won decorations as a Starfleet officer, he mingles with the crew, he has authority to order juniors about, many of the crew call him his friend. I certainly don't befriend a glorified GPS or give it medals, lulz. Data strikes me as simply another alien in Star Trek's diverse range of interesting and amusing alien life.

Maddox arrives, hey bud, you're a toaster, pal. I'm gonna dismember you, so I can make millions of you. Don't like it? Tough.

They wouldn't do that to Mr. Spock would they? Starfleet really shouldn't be this schizophrenic about Data's standing.

But Maddox does deserve cred for arriving at a new understanding. I think redemption, when sincere, is all good and positive.

I think we have to suspend some disbelief regarding the logistics of the episode in order to appreciate the root premise of it, for better or worse. Though it wouldn't be the first time something we thought we understood in Trek got turned on its head either, to be fair. This may admittedly be a more extreme example of such.
 
Like I said, the real villain of the episode is the JAG. Picard was immediately hostile toward her at the begin of the episode. And knowing Picard, if he is hostile toward someone, well, this someone deserves his hostility.
 
And how exactly is it evident that Data is sentient versus merely the sum of his programming, doing what Soong's code tells him to do? Or does it not matter whether that's the case?

I think that sentence in bold perfectly sums up the prejudice humans can have against sentient machines. Because they're made from different components than us, because their minds have been actively coded by another person, people tend to think it makes them less sentient. That is the main problem.
Just because Data, or Exocompts, or many other fictional sentient AIs, were programmed don't make them any less sentient. We humans, biological animal lifeforms, are programmed too. Our brains don't come blank when we are born, they're already wired and pre-scripted for survival behaviours like nursing or searching for our mother's scent. Watch a video on Youtube of a 2 hours baby foraging for his mother's breasts, it's very obvious it's a totally programmed behaviour.
As we grow and learn, our brains develop new connections in a way that is totally similar to Data's heuristic algorithms. We fixate on things, imprint on things, learn by imitation, by trial and error, by emulating behaviours we observed or sometimes read about...

All of this happens because our brains are programmed for developing in a such a way, which is different from a person to another (hello neurodiversity). We also inheritate brain patterns from our parents, which explains why some disorders (like bipolar disorders, generalized anxiety, schizophrenia...) and temperament traits are genetically inheritated.

So I don't really see what kind of a difference it can make if the person's brain was actively coded by another person, or if it was coded by long term evolutionary selection. This is an anthropocentrist point of view to think that a programmed AI is supposed to be less sentient than a programmed biological lifeform, just because the AI is following their scripts. We do the same as them everyday, we just don't like to aknowledge it.

I'll even get bolder here and throw another topoc tackled in TMoaM : consent.
Maddox's excuse for refusing to accept Data's refusal is that he wouldn't be sentient, therefore his consent wouldn't seem to exist. That's a clever metaphor about the excuses abusers use to make an aggression appear less as an aggression, just because the victim was this or did that.
Whatever Maddow's point of view was about Data's sentience, Data's statement that he didn't want to cooperate should have been enough to stop the whole process. Just because someone's level of sentience or self awareness isn't exactly the same as ours doesn't make it any less unethical to use them and abuse them, especially when they already said NO.

In this episode, Maddox is definitely not motivated by evil plans, but he's definitely acting as an anthropocentrist, speciesist abuser, and clearly demonstrates a moral prejudice against Data's nature.

Footnote : I'm not saying that to you in particular, Donlago. Just quoting.

Like I said, the real villain of the episode is the JAG.

I don't agree with you. I actually feel that Louvois did as much as she could to make sure Data got a chance to win.
When she tells Picard and Riker that she needs someone to represent Maddox's interests and Riker refuses, she warns them she'd have no other choice than ruling against Data. She could have remained silent and just ruled her decision. That should have been a villain's action.
Instead, she strongly hinted that there was something she could do, if and only if Riker accepted to represent Maddox. She settled the chess game in a way that gave a chance to Data.
 
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I don't agree with you. I actually feel that Louvois did as much as she could to make sure Data got a chance to win.
When she tells Picard and Riker that she needs someone to represent Maddox's interests and Riker refuses, she warns them she'd have no other choice than ruling against Data. She could have remained silent and just ruled her decision. That should have been a villain's action.
She was the only in the whole universe (with the exception of Maddox) who believed that Data wasn't a sentient being. It was obvious that she HAD NO knowledge in the AI field but she deliberated in contrast with a panel of expert which twenty years before had decided that Data should be treated as sentient being, without CONSULTING ANYONE. There wasn't any emergencies, any war, ANYTHING that justifies why she rushed Picard and Riker in preparing the hearing, without waiting for an expert or more qualified people. She forced someone to prove that a friend of his didn't have the right to live. There was only one expert in the field (Maddox) that was an expert for one side of the debate and Picard couldn't call anyone.
Instead, she strongly hinted that there was something she could do
Yes, she could immediately decide in favor of him. Or delay the transfer and wait for more qualified people on the matter.
Anything else that was not the belief of being the only person to be right in the whole galaxy and everyone else was wrong.
 
@Skipper : the dialogues made me believe that there was actually nothing she could legally do to delay or cancel the transfer. But I didn't pause the bluRAY to read Picard's screen when he tries to read Starfleet's regulations of officer transfers. So maybe there is indeed something that states she could have taken another route.

But Louvois is not the only one apart from Maddox to be skeptical about Data's sentience at first. Unfortunalety. May we talk about Pulaski ? Or Gosheven ? Or some of the USS Sutherlands crew members in Redemption II, when Data gained temporary captaincy ? Or Juliana's new husband ?

That being said, I'm not so sure that Louvois didn't believe Data to be sentient. To me, she appears more like she's neutral towards him, and wants Picard and Riker to prove her that Data's more than a regular machine. Because he is a machine indeed, there's nothing insulting about it. But based solely on that technical fact, she wouldn't have any other choice than ruling in favour of Maddox. Sentience is the only fact that could help garantee Data's freedom.
 
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The plot missed contacting the panel who decided Data was sentient enough to join Starfleet , study at the Academy, graduate and serve as an officer, moving up the ranks. If Starfleet just wanted to treat Data like a computer they should have linked him up to the ship and left him there as Enterprise library. The hearing was as valid as the American Dred Scott case IMO (iow not valid at all and totally unnecessary).
Maddox intentions was not evil per se but the way to hell or abusive actions is paved with good intentions.
 
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@Skipper : the dialogues made me believe that there was actually nothing she could legally do to delay or cancel the transfer. But I didn't pause the bluRAY to read Picard's screen when he tries to read Starfleet's regulations of officer transfers. So maybe there is indeed something that states she could have taken another route.
The hearing wasn't about if Data had to obey orders, but if he had the right to resign. The point of Maddox was that Data, a machine, was no more legally able to refuse his procedure and resign from Starfleet than the Enterprise's computer was able to refuse a refit.

Before the hearing the JAG ruled in favor of Maddox, implicitly (and arrogantly) saying that a panel of expert (which decided the Data has the right to join up Star Fleet) was WRONG.

But Louvois is not the only one apart from Maddox to be skeptical about Data's sentience at first. Unfortunalety. May we talk about Pulaski ? Or Gosheven ? Or some of the USS Sutherlands crew members in Redemption II, when Data gained temporary captaincy ? Or Juliana's new husband ?
They are just opinions. But if someone has to decide if a sentient being has the right to decide about his destiny, well, I hope this someone puts some more thought into the matter, or, I don't know, trusts what a PANEL OF EXPERTS ALREADY DECIDED 20 years before?
That being said, I'm not so sure that Louvois didn't believe Data to be sentient. To me, she appears more like she's neutral towards him, and wants Picard and Riker to prove her that Data's more than a regular machine.
She wasn't neutral, because she had already decided before the hearing. If she were truly neutral, she would have requested the hearing before deciding, or said that she was not competent in the matter.
 
I haven't watched the episode in a long time, but if that panel of experts literally decided that Data had the "right" to join Starfleet, that's not exactly the same thing as deciding he's sentient.

You can argue that that's semantics if you'd like, but we're in the legal world here, in which semantics can make or break an argument.

FWIW, I did a fairly cursory search on the script for the exact line about the panel of experts but couldn't find it here: http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/135.htm

Is it the below? If so, then just because Maddox's argument against Data joining the Academy was that he didn't believe Data was sentient, that doesn't equate to the rest of the committee believing Data was sentient. It could mean they just had other reasons for voting otherwise.

PICARD: The two of you are acquainted?
MADDOX: Yes, I evaluated Data when it first applied to the Academy.
DATA: And was the sole member of the committee to oppose my entrance on the grounds that I was not a sentient being.
PICARD: What exactly will this work entail?
MADDOX: I am going to disassemble Data.
 
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