The Measure of a Man - Thoughts

[Superbread]

This episode is so good because it's so bloody infuriating. It makes you want to scream at the TV, reach into it and rip Maddock's sleazy head off. But at the same time the conflict is presented in such a way that on some level you can actually see where he's coming from.

For a split second you're questioning: What if he could successfully create a bunch of Datas? Wouldn't that be a good thing? Are we so attached to Data as an individual that we fail to see the bigger picture? And then you're straight back at no way can this happen! Data is sentient and he has rights like anyone else.

Then they go and throw Riker in and honestly I have to pause it every five minutes to rant at myself. It's just such a good episode.

I'd imagine most on here come to the same conclusion as the show does, but I'm interested in hearing if there are different takes on the case? Or if anyone thought it was bad? I'm sure it's an oft-discussed episode.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

This was the first TNG episode I ever saw and it hooked me immediately. I had rejected the series because I found the title "The Next Generation" hopelessly derivative. MoaM instantly convinced me otherwise and I thank a friend, Charlie Townsend, for urging me to give it a chance.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Commander Riker's forced to compel Data to fight for his life in a courtroom setting (!!!) which tests his friendship with the android and plagues him with feelings of remorse and guilt as he continually raises the stakes in his unenviable task. When it's all over and Data seeks out Riker ... to this day, it still gets me misty. The slavery bit is laid on a bit thick, but that's TV, for you: nothing like beating you over the head with a show's message, lest you forget what it was all about betwixt commercials. And courtroom dramas usually suck arse, but Sir Patrick Stewart's up to the challenge, thank Providence, and keeps things interesting. Captain Phillipa Louvois' hitting on Picard and hitting on him hard is kind of funny and sad, all at once ... she's probably menopausal, when we first meet her. In all, it's just TNG doing what TNG does best: it really satisfies ...

 

[Discofan]

It's a good episode, well played and well written but like many Star Trek episodes it has one infuriating flaw: It doesn't address the elephant in the room. In this case, it's that there's no way of knowing whether Data is sentient or just emulating sentience. That may seem a detail to some but that's the main difference between Pinocchio and a real boy.
There are volumes that have been written on the subject, the first one by René Descartes. You can know about your own sentience but to this day there is no sure-fire way of knowing about the sentience of others than yourself. We infer the sentience of others from the fact that they are very similar to us in nature, for one thing, they are of the same species but there's no way to prove it with absolute certainty. If someone was just an automaton perfectly mimicking the behavior of a human being we wouldn't know about it.

 

[PureCrimson]

Wasn't this an earlier episode?

I think I've seen it, but I remember while I liked the themes, it seemed a bit awkward or ham-fisted, which generally happened only during the first season of Next Gen for me.

 

[Qonundrum]

This episode is so good because it's so bloody infuriating. It makes you want to scream at the TV, reach into it and rip Maddock's sleazy head off. But at the same time the conflict is presented in such a way that on some level you can actually see where he's coming from.

For a split second you're questioning: What if he could successfully create a bunch of Datas? Wouldn't that be a good thing? Are we so attached to Data as an individual that we fail to see the bigger picture? And then you're straight back at no way can this happen! Data is sentient and he has rights like anyone else.

Then they go and throw Riker in and honestly I have to pause it every five minutes to rant at myself. It's just such a good episode.

I'd imagine most on here come to the same conclusion as the show does, but I'm interested in hearing if there are different takes on the case? Or if anyone thought it was bad? I'm sure it's an oft-discussed episode.

The best Trek allows both sides to have a reasoned case, not heavyhandedness. With few exceptions, of course. TMoaM handles both sides impeccably and it's one of my favorites.

Picard's speech nailed it, but had Riker interjected and to ask Data how he knew he was sentient, as opposed to finding the assembly manual to detach an arm for fun, and he would have won. And Data already has programming that prevents to self-destruct, so his right to choose being property would contradict that as he already knew the relative risks involved.

But Data wasn't going to lose. And the writing and acting are eminently compelling.

I like how Melinda Snodgrass forces the issue with Riker having to work against Data. It adds to the interpersonal conflict that the show often lacked, and hit a home run in the process. Data later admitted the issue eloquently, but it's the old adage: In a job sometimes people have to do what they don't like. Otherwise it's not called "work"?

The episode makes me scream because they use a minor variation of the same premise several times in the show. Starting already early into season three with "The Offspring", and eventually we also get to (by far) the worst re-use of the plot: It was in season six's abysmal "The Quality of Life".

Didn't "Emergence" also tiptoe on the issue, since the ship itself was developing a conscious somehow? (it was an alien infesting the circuits but whatever)

Not to be outdone, VOY takes the same premise and applies it to hologrammatic AI, by which time nobody cared - even the episodes using the premise felt worn out.

 

[DonIago]

I think asking Data how he can know he's sentient is equivalent to asking any human being how they can know they're sentient.

Sentience is a belief one can have, not a fact that can be objectively established.

 

[Greg Cox]

Wasn't this an earlier episode?

I think I've seen it, but I remember while I liked the themes, it seemed a bit awkward or ham-fisted, which generally happened only during the first season of Next Gen for me.

Near the beginning of the second season . . .

 

[thribs]

I watched this episode recently and I thought Picard’s argument was rather weak. I’m surprised he won with it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What if he could successfully create a bunch of Datas? Wouldn't that be a good thing?

No, because this would give rise to a race of slaves. It would, essentially, advocate the concept of slavery itself. Remember what Guinan said:

"Consider that in the history of many worlds, there have always been disposable creatures. They do the dirty work. They do the work that no one else wants to do because it's too difficult or too hazardous. And an army of Datas, all disposable... You don't have to think about their welfare, you don't think about how they feel. Whole generations of disposable people. "

Then they go and throw Riker in and honestly I have to pause it every five minutes to rant at myself.

That's the main problem I have with this episode. Are there NO other staff members at this starbase who could have fulfilled that role?

Yes, yes, Louvois did say that she didn't have a full complement of crew, but there still had to be dozens, if not hundreds, of personnel working under her command. And NONE of these people are qualified to serve as prosecuting counsel? Will Riker, who (as far as we know) has no formal legal training, can serve as prosecutor, but nobody else on that whole starbase's crew roster can do so? I find that hard to believe.

I find myself suspecting that Louvois only "drafted" Riker into the service of the prosecution, just so she could stick it to Picard. She wanted to make Riker suffer for having to advocate against his close friend, and she wanted to make Picard watch. She's more vindictive than she seems...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It's a good episode, well played and well written but like many Star Trek episodes it has one infuriating flaw: It doesn't address the elephant in the room. In this case, it's that there's no way of knowing whether Data is sentient or just emulating sentience. That may seem a detail to some but that's the main difference between Pinocchio and a real boy.

Doesn't it explicitly address that? "We have been dancing around the question, does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I must give him the opportunity to answer that question himself."

The show addressed it but came to the conclusion "I dunno", and to me that's the most honest answer you can give in reality.

 

[DonIago]

One interesting note...the "slave race" argument seems upheld by what happens with the Mark I EMHs, though I'll admit that it's debatable whether those EMHs are themselves sentient.

 

[Discofan]

Doesn't it explicitly address that? "We have been dancing around the question, does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I must give him the opportunity to answer that question himself."

The show addressed it but came to the conclusion "I dunno", and to me that's the most honest answer you can give in reality.

I don't like to use the word "soul", I find it tendentious and much less accurate than "sentient" for example, though "self-aware" is even better.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

TMoaM is the first episode that sparkled my interest for Data (and Soong type androids in general), and definitely one of my top 5 favourite episodes !! Even if I wanted to kill Maddox as soon as he entered the ship XD

 

[Forbin]

One of my favorite eps - very well written and performed.
The other elephant in the room it fails to address, though: if Starfleet ever thought Data was "just a machine", how the hell did he become a Starfleet officer? You'd think the question of him being "alive" or "sentient" had to be answered before they let him join the service.
BUT, I let myself ignore that point because the episode is just so damn good.

 

[DonIago]

Maybe they figured it would be an interesting "test" to see whether Data could meet all the requirements to become a Starfleet officer in the first place, and then decided they might as well make use of the machine afterward.

 

[Marynator]

I feel it's more like what Captain Picard was telling Admiral Haftel, like Starfleet gets confused of his rights and sentience in different circumstances. I feel maybe it mirrors many ways our culture treats women, like "Oh yes we respect you as a person for your abilities, and we'll let you work here, but ... yeah we're not going to promote you." Or other minority groups, when a person wants to see himself as enlightened but still wants to cling to privilege.

 

[Nakita Akita]

No, because this would give rise to a race of slaves. It would, essentially, advocate the concept of slavery itself. Remember what Guinan said:

"Consider that in the history of many worlds, there have always been disposable creatures. They do the dirty work. They do the work that no one else wants to do because it's too difficult or too hazardous. And an army of Datas, all disposable... You don't have to think about their welfare, you don't think about how they feel. Whole generations of disposable people. "



That's the main problem I have with this episode. Are there NO other staff members at this starbase who could have fulfilled that role?

Yes, yes, Louvois did say that she didn't have a full complement of crew, but there still had to be dozens, if not hundreds, of personnel working under her command. And NONE of these people are qualified to serve as prosecuting counsel? Will Riker, who (as far as we know) has no formal legal training, can serve as prosecutor, but nobody else on that whole starbase's crew roster can do so? I find that hard to believe.

I find myself suspecting that Louvois only "drafted" Riker into the service of the prosecution, just so she could stick it to Picard. She wanted to make Riker suffer for having to advocate against his close friend, and she wanted to make Picard watch. She's more vindictive than she seems...

But if it was determined that Data was a machine, (their) his welfare wouldn't matter.
I'm sure that you pop bread in your toaster every morning and want nice evenly toasted toast to pop up in a minute or two.
If your toaster suddenly loses a heat coil on one side, do you keep the toaster in place of honor forever in your kitchen, take it out for some sunshine a few times a week? No. You don't you chuck it in the bin and get a new one.

As for the admiral picking Riker to be the opposing counsel, how in the world did you arrive that she knew that Riker considered Data a friend?
I was in Units where I didn't like people.
Just because they are stationed together doesn't mean they are friends.

 

[Marynator]

I thought also she needed someone who was a senior officer? Will Riker is a commander and is very much likely more senior than others at her outpost.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But if it was determined that Data was a machine, (their) his welfare wouldn't matter.

I suppose it is easy to think that [insert group name here]'s welfare doesn't matter if they are ruled to be less than human. It's been tried before.