The mean side of good movies

[JirinPanthosa]

Even then, sometimes it can be overdone and milked. I'm not a big fan of what Disney is currently doing with SW, for instance. Some things just need to be left to the imagination. Not everything needs to be filled in.

My only problem with the Star Wars TV shows is they’re spending too much time on established characters and not enough on new ones.

I thought the sequels were mediocre because they rehashed the original too much but I disagree they undid a happy ending. Happy endings only lasting 20 years or so before new bad guys show up is realistic. I just wish it was a new bad guy.

 

[Owain Taggart]

My only problem with the Star Wars TV shows is they’re spending too much time on established characters and not enough on new ones.

I thought the sequels were mediocre because they rehashed the original too much but I disagree they undid a happy ending. Happy endings only lasting 20 years or so before new bad guys show up is realistic. I just wish it was a new bad guy.

Yep, pretty much on point. I'm not gonna hash it out here, but I really felt they should have had someone completely new. Found the end-result rather underwhelming. They really should have done more with the characters to build out their own legacy for their own era, and felt that dragging out an old villain undermined everything.

As for the TV series, the reason they do established characters is nostalgia. But the problem with that approach is that they tend to dig into areas that don't necessarily need expanding on. And sadly, I tend to feel Disney doesn't really know how to move the franchise forward despite having the sequel trilogy. It seems like a franchise that Disney is only too happy to keep looking back on, and for something with a wealth of potential, that just seems disappointing. SW needs to start exploring new eras, whether they're in the past before the OT like the Old Republic era or something beyond the ST's era.

 

[SithHappens]

Sometimes it's better to wonder....

Maybe the powers that should be should tell themselves 'in the end their can be only one'

 

[Orphalesion]

I thought the sequels were mediocre because they rehashed the original too much but I disagree they undid a happy ending. Happy endings only lasting 20 years or so before new bad guys show up is realistic. I just wish it was a new bad guy.

I'm not saying everything had to be rainbows and unicorns forever in the New Republic and of course a new chapter in the story necessitates new problems.

The reason why I complain about the new movies undoing the Happy Ending of the originals is because that's what they did. Everything was gained at the end of the original trilogy, both on a galaxy-wide and a personal level, was undone by the time of the Force Awakens, and it was done just to rehash the original movies.

One easy way to fix at least some of it would have been to make Rey Kylo's sister, so to give Leia and Han at least one kid that isn't screwed up completely.
And yeah an actual new bad guy would have help too.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Sometimes it's better to wonder....

Maybe the powers that should be should tell themselves 'in the end their can be only one'

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes not everything needs to be explained. Mysteries are better at creating magic.

and it was done just to rehash the original movies.

I was sad and frustrated that the big reveal and confrontation at the end was pretty much exactly note for note, verbatim to ROTJ's. I'd heard the rumours beforehand, but i was really hoping it wasn't the case, but I wasn't prepared for how much of a wet blanket it actually was!

See, the thing is, with Kylo being a villain, he'd needed someone to reign in his power and keep him in check. In the OT, you had the dynamic power play of Darth Vader and the Emperor, and that kept things fairly grounded. But with Kylo, there seemed to be a power vacuum. There was an opportunity for this in the second movie, much in the same way the Emperor was revealed in ESB, but the ST had a history of killing off villains. Oops! The whole reveal at the end of RoS felt so much like a step back.

 

[fireproof78]

My only problem with the Star Wars TV shows is they’re spending too much time on established characters and not enough on new ones.

Avatar is sus...

Happy endings only lasting 20 years or so before new bad guys show up is realistic.

Indeed. I do agree on this.

It seems like a franchise that Disney is only too happy to keep looking back on

Nah. That's just culture. The powers that be are creating content that sells. Nostalgia sells buckets right now, be it Star Trek, Cobra Kai, Star Wars, etc.

Sometimes it's better to wonder....

Maybe the powers that should be should tell themselves 'in the end their can be only one'

I agree. There is a reason why I hold the original Star Wars: the movie, no Empire or ROTJ, is such high esteem. It was the best example of possibility.

As for what the powers of be should tell themselves-well, they are telling themselves they are in the business to make money. In the end, yeah, there can be only one, and so what if they make more?

And yeah an actual new bad guy would have help too.

Agreed. I loved Snoke.

 

[Owain Taggart]

It's a JJ Abrams production. If you were looking for original elements, try for the installment in-between the JJs.

*Shrug* It was part of the main saga, so of course I had high expecations.

Nah. That's just culture. The powers that be are creating content that sells. Nostalgia sells buckets right now, be it Star Trek, Cobra Kai, Star Wars, etc.

Nostalgia is certainly one aspect, yes. But thematically the sequels had larger problems. As movies being part of a continuing saga, they felt strangely disconnected yet borrowed so much without carving out its own sense of place.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Cobra Kai used the story telling style of the original to tell a new story in the future with a large cast of new teenage characters. They didn’t just tell the story of 12 year old Johnny Lawrence joining Cobra Kai or something. Or just rehash every specific story point blow for blow.

They took the existing characters and storytelling style and evolved it forward with new stories into a new generation and that’s all I want Star Wars to do. They did it with Mandalorian.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Cobra Kai used the story telling style of the original to tell a new story in the future with a large cast of new teenage characters. They didn’t just tell the story of 12 year old Johnny Lawrence joining Cobra Kai or something. Or just rehash every specific story point blow for blow.

They took the existing characters and storytelling style and evolved it forward with new stories into a new generation and that’s all I want Star Wars to do.

Yep, right on. Another example would be Degrassi. In the 80's and 90's, it was an incredibly popular show that really pushed the envelope. When it came time to rebooting the show in 1999, instead of a reset, they used the same actors who were now themselves adults playing parents to a new generation. You had the continuing stories of the original crew alongside the stories of the new kids. and the approach that was taken was pretty awesome and felt like a very natural and respectful progression. It was one the first shows to offer a continuance. It cemented its legacy, yet at the same time, it forged on creating new stories for a new set of kids. It all this in a harmonious manner, without taking away from each other.

 

[fireproof78]

Cobra Kai used the story telling style of the original to tell a new story in the future with a large cast of new teenage characters. They didn’t just tell the story of 12 year old Johnny Lawrence joining Cobra Kai or something. Or just rehash every specific story point blow for blow.

They took the existing characters and storytelling style and evolved it forward with new stories into a new generation and that’s all I want Star Wars to do. They did it with Mandalorian.

It feels very repetitive of the themes of the original. I do not find it that new. Sorry, mileage will vary. I enjoy Cobra Kai until season 3 and then it became...less than enjoyable, to be charitable.

But, what I see is very much the return to the nostalgia of those stories, of those themes, and those characters. They are not moving forward that much so as to retain the familiarity of the original films. I think Cobra Kai did well initially, but the feel is closer to the films than I would like for something supposedly new. Mandalorian is the same way, utilizing familiar tropes and senses of Star Wars to tell an anthology story about an insert character.

It all this in a harmonious manner, without taking away from each other.

It doesn't take away from the originals, but it also remains restrained by its history. So, it's not as enjoyable for me anymore. It was for a time and I think Season 1-3 were better than they had any right to be, but beyond that? Nostalgia.

Nostalgia is certainly one aspect, yes. But thematically the sequels had larger problems. As movies being part of a continuing saga, they felt strangely disconnected yet borrowed so much without carving out its own sense of place.

I disagree...strongly. They do recreate a lot, but the themes of belonging and desire to separate from the past make it distinct. Rey is a perfectly distintive character in that series, and sets apart even from the OT, the PT, or the wish fulfillment of Mando.

 

[Owain Taggart]

It doesn't take away from the originals, but it also remains restrained by its history. So, it's not as enjoyable for me anymore. It was for a time and I think Season 1-3 were better than they had any right to be, but beyond that? Nostalgia.

I wouldn't say restrained. It had more of a sense of history without pandering to its past, and was very effective at melding the two.

I disagree...strongly. They do recreate a lot, but the themes of belonging and desire to separate from the past make it distinct. Rey is a perfectly distintive character in that series, and sets apart even from the OT, the PT, or the wish fulfillment of Mando.

Rey is probably one of the more distinctive characters in the trilogy, yes. Still feel they could have done more with her. More could have been done with the other characters as well. More sense of worth could have been given to these characters by giving them something new to fight as a big bad, something to call their own.

 

[fireproof78]

I wouldn't say restrained. It had more of a sense of history without pandering to its past, and was very effective at melding the two.

It felt very pandering to me, especially Season 3 and 4.

Rey is probably one of the more distinctive characters in the trilogy, yes. Still feel they could have done more with her. More could have been done with the other characters as well. More sense of worth could have been given to these characters by giving them something new to fight as a big bad, something to call their own.

Of course more could have been done. That doesn't make it lesser or less distinct as a story or trilogy.

Is it as good as the OT? Of course not, but that's not my expectation. Is it an enjoyable story leaving me wanting more? Yes, and that's my expectation. Everyone's mileage will vary, and no doubt does. But, more my opinion is that I think that current Hollywood culture is bound by nostalgia, than any one franchise in particular. I do not believe that Cobra Kai is the exception, though I do note many enjoy it. It did too, for a time. But, unlike other stories, it didn't leave me wanting more.

I should add that as in all things mileage will vary. More on topic I want stories that leave me wanting more, that draw me back in to the history of the characters, and their struggles, rather than feeling like I have to labor through.

As a demonstration of my personal preference. I just finished up Rings of Power for the second time. I have not revisited Cobra Kai, nor have I continued on with Andor. The magic is clearly not with me. Mileage will vary.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I should add that as in all things mileage will vary. More on topic I want stories that leave me wanting more, that draw me back in to the history of the characters, and their struggles, rather than feeling like I have to labor through.

I agree with you there. I think it definitely does vary, and we all llook to different things.. But the ST left me wanting more, and not in a good way, But to each their own.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It feels very repetitive of the themes of the original. I do not find it that new. Sorry, mileage will vary. I enjoy Cobra Kai until season 3 and then it became...less than enjoyable, to be charitable.

But, what I see is very much the return to the nostalgia of those stories, of those themes, and those characters. They are not moving forward that much so as to retain the familiarity of the original films. I think Cobra Kai did well initially, but the feel is closer to the films than I would like for something supposedly new. Mandalorian is the same way, utilizing familiar tropes and senses of Star Wars to tell an anthology story about an insert character.

Rey is a good character, but a little bit generic in terms of modern heroines. Well executed, yes. Original, no. And the criticism that she didn't have to work as hard as previous characters to get the same powers is totally justified, she figured out Jedi mind tricks in five seconds not knowing they were even a thing for God's sake.

I like Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB8 a lot. They are very good characters. I would love to see new stories with all those characters. But The Force Awakens was literally just A New Hope again. They came up with a new planet that was just like Tatooine but not Tatooine. They came up with The Death Star while making a plot point "Oh it's super bigger than the death star so SUPER MORE SCARY". They literally gave a size chart, Death Star against New Death Star Like Thing, because to them, showing it was physically bigger than the Death Star was enough to make it the Death Star Plus.

Mandalorian uses familiar tropes, but it's not a scene for scene copy of anything. Same tropes, same style, new characters, unknown fate.

Cobra Kai is absolutely based on nostalgia, but it feels legitimately like a sequel, not a rehash.

 

[fireproof78]

Mandalorian uses familiar tropes, but it's not a scene for scene copy of anything. Same tropes, same style, new characters, unknown fate.

Maybe one season ago. Definitely not 2.

Cobra Kai is absolutely based on nostalgia, but it feels legitimately like a sequel, not a rehash.

It did.

But, I've said all that. I'd prefer Rey and company over the Mandalorian, Rings of Power over Cobra Kai. It does leave me wanting more.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I like Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB8 a lot. They are very good characters. I would love to see new stories with all those characters. But The Force Awakens was literally just A New Hope again. They came up with a new planet that was just like Tatooine but not Tatooine. They came up with The Death Star while making a plot point "Oh it's super bigger than the death star so SUPER MORE SCARY". They literally gave a size chart, Death Star against New Death Star Like Thing, because to them, showing it was physically bigger than the Death Star was enough to make it the Death Star Plus.

Yep, different, but the same, which is a theme in the ST. Bigger version of the DS, bigger versions of the SSD too! At which point, when they appeared I had to check if I wasn't watching Spaceballs... Because honestly, it all felt like they were parodying their own universe at that point.

 

[Roundabout]

I recently watched 'What's Eating Gilbert Grape', awesome movie but.... I want more.
This is where TV series is better, there's so much more of it.
What happened to Gilbert, his family and his brother, what about the thing with Becky, what happened....?

When Gilbert and Arnie hitched a ride with Becky and hit the road with her to get a fresh start in life, that was a good enough ending for me.

What's Eating Gilbert Grape is a surprisingly good and moving movie. But did I want to know what happened to the characters after the movie ended? Not really.

The point of the Gilbert Grape story is what it is. We saw how the Grape family played the hand that they were dealt. The family handled their difficult situation the way that they did, and by the end of the movie, they managed to move on with their lives. What might have happened to those characters after the movie ended would be beside the point, imho. It's not a soap opera in that regard.


Side note: Before I saw Gilbert Grape, I had never heard of Leonardo DiCaprio. His portrayal of the mentally challenged brother was so convincing, that I left the movie theater thinking that the actor was himself actually mentally disabled. I thought the movie had cast an actual handicapped person to play the role.

It wasn't until I saw Titanic, when it struck me that the actor who played Jack look familiar. But I couldn't quite place where I might have seen the actor before.

Afterwards, it was when I was reading a review of Titanic that I learned that the actor who played Jack is the same person who was the the handicapped brother in Gilbert Grape. I was shocked.

What happened to Gilbert, his family and his brother, what about the thing with Becky, what happened....?

I don't know what became of the Gilbert, Arnie or Becky characters.

But I think it's safe to say that Leonardo DiCaprio, the actor, went on to become a big time celebrity, and that he is not really mentally disabled, although I did wonder about his sanity after he dumped Gisele.

 

[JesterFace]

I don't know what became of the Gilbert, Arnie or Becky characters.

The thing here wasn't so much about what happened to those characters in that particular movie but that TV series can give so much more.
The movie Gilbert Grape is awesome but after watching the movie it can make one feel kind of empty, what now, I want more of that great stuff but there just isn't any.

 

[Jayson1]

I can think of one. That would be Hellboy 2. We so should have gotten a third movie with Del Toro. That missing third movie hurts a little.

 

[Oddish]

Sometimes it’s just better off ending where it does. In some sequels they end up undoing happy endings to preserve the

I remember two egregious examples, one being MiB2, which absolutely demolished the satisfying ending of the first one, and Miss Congeniality 2,which not only trashed MC1's ending, but took an enormous smelly crap on Sandra Bullock's amazing character.