The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

[Gaith]

Why do you assume that? The conceit is that the Matrix is the same as what we the audience consider to be the real world, so the art and culture would be the same as what you're used to. They have art, film, music, fashion...

I didn't think the Matrix looked particularly dull.

Green, yes. But that was intentional. It always had a greenish hue (like the AlphaVerse from Charlie Jade) just to distinguish it from the real world.

It was always my interpretation that life in Matrix was analogous to the actual real world. With just as much diversity in culture and what have you as we actually have.

I admit this is a subjective interpretation of the series on my part, but I think the sterility of the Matrix goes beyond a simple green filter (and it's not as though the audience would have been confused about which scenes took place where without said filter). Look at how little plant life we see in the Matrix, and how grimy so much of the city is. Consider that, in the big POV shot of Neo flying to the highway battle, we see pretty much nothing but factories, industrial areas, and the financial district downtown in the distance. Look at the Woman in the Red Dress construct program, which fools Neo into thinking is the actual Matrix he's spent his whole life in, and consider how little clothing and color variation there is, even by the standards of a business-centric downtown.

One can argue that despite all these glaring stylistic flourishes, the Matrix is meant to be just like our real world, and just because we don't happen to see the Matrix Hawaii or Mardi Gras or what have you doesn't mean it's not there, or that it doesn't happen. AFAIK, there's nothing in the movies themselves that invalidates either interpretation. (Whether one wants to consider elements from The Matrix Online or The Animatrix is a secondary question.) Personally, I prefer to think that the "present day" of the Matrix program is only a pale, almost entirely urban shadow of the real world.

In any case, however, Edit_XYZ's point about the potential for instant execution and/or possible memory deletion strikes me as solid.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yup, the Matrix is one large megacity with sub-cities representing each nation and culture, the overall city is many hundreds of miles in size, with parts of it existing in essentially different period styles too.

But all of them suppressed just enough to keep the population of it in line and keep the variables low, with the Agents further supressing individual sporatic events.

Sterility is how they keep the prime program running even as much as it does. It's an incredibly complex prison, but a prison all the same.

 

[Gaith]

We *do* get a good impression of what life is like in "the real world" and we see that it's a shit-hole. Even if you're one of the "civilians" living in Zion it seems like life ain't too great. Want to talk about a lack of art and movies? Yeah... I didn't exactly get the impression Zion has a functioning Hollywood-level production going on inside those caverns or an IMAX-3D cinema.

I do wish there'd been all sorts of walkable gardens and greenery in Zion, but while it may not have too many movies (not that I think movies produced inside the Matrix are likely to be much good anyway), there's probably lots of community theater/entertainment, a strong shared sense of a vital common purpose in everything, and a likely much more hedonistic approach to, er, rumpus-ing than you'd get within the Matrix.

 

[Mister Fandango]

There's tons of entertainment available in the Matrix, too. Neo met Trinity in a nightclub, Cypher was dining at an elegant restaurant, the Merovingian ran yet another restaurant/hotel, and there were drugs, music, and sex to be found all over the place. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a bunch of books and CD/DVDs in Neo's apartment, too. Oh, and they had the Internet (or some approximation thereof) as well, complete with anonymous chatrooms at the very least.

Nevermind that the original Matrix was a Utopian paradise, but they claimed they had to tear that down because humans -- in traditional lame sci-fi philosophy -- saw through it too easily; we apparently can't handle being happy and free to do whatever we like.

Hell, we even saw a few older people roaming around, too, suggesting that you could live a long, full life to boot. And certainly not one that's worse off than the vast majority of the world today.

 

[Tosk]

And people choosing to live in a high security prison - the matrix - because they can't process being in an environment different from the one they are used to and desperately run after a distorted illusion of familiarity - at the cost of becoming slaves?
My condescension is quite appropriate.

I actually just meant that there is no need to condescend or name-call just because someone else chose the other option. Why not just discuss it in a more reasonable tone?

Assuming the real world is a simulation (which is quite different from the matrix as depicted - the prison/zoo), I can assure you I didn't choose to live here because it has better cuisine (or better clothes or a boring, dead-end job, or a boring life with no perspectives whatsoever, etc). Indeed, no choice was offered.

No choice that you know of. The whole point of the question is that Blue-Pillers would never know the choice they had made. They would go back to living the rest of their life unaware. If you have a boring life or job, you do something about it. Or not, just like the real real world.

I do wish there'd been all sorts of walkable gardens and greenery in Zion, but while it may not have too many movies (not that I think movies produced inside the Matrix are likely to be much good anyway), there's probably lots of community theater/entertainment, a strong shared sense of a vital common purpose in everything, and a likely much more hedonistic approach to, er, rumpus-ing than you'd get within the Matrix.

Why are you content to assume so much regarding Zion but so unwilling to accept that there is "culture" in the Matrix?

The sweaty dance-rave-orgy of Matrix 2 certainly doesn't make me want to live there.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

People should have the right to choose to willingly live in the Matrix if they so desire. In the original film, Morpheus apparently did not agree - his mission seemed to be to completely destroy the Matrix and wake everybody up by force, whether or not they wanted it. At least when the trilogy was over, there was peace, and those who actually wanted to live in the Matrix (like I would) were allowed to do so freely.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Assuming the real world is a simulation (which is quite different from the matrix as depicted - the prison/zoo), I can assure you I didn't choose to live here because it has better cuisine (or better clothes or a boring, dead-end job, or a boring life with no perspectives whatsoever, etc). Indeed, no choice was offered.

No choice that you know of. The whole point of the question is that Blue-Pillers would never know the choice they had made. They would go back to living the rest of their life unaware. If you have a boring life or job, you do something about it. Or not, just like the real real world.

First, as established in the movie, if you take the blue pill you wake up the next morning and beleive whatever you wish about said event you still remember.

Second, you're confusing the depicted matrix with the real world.
If I have a boring job in the real world, I can do something about it.
If you have a boring job and life in the matrix, you can't do anything about that - all jobs/lives there are pointless treading water. And if you are really determined about trying to do something about it, if you try to exit the stereotype imposed upon you, all you get for your trouble is a lobotomy or termination, courtesy of your masters.
Which part of the matrix being a sterile prison that imposes conformity don't you understand?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you have a boring job and life in the matrix, you can't do anything about that - all jobs/lives there are pointless treading water. And if you are really determined about trying to do something about it, if you try to exit the stereotype imposed upon you, all you get for your trouble is a lobotomy or termination, courtesy of your masters.

There is absolutely no evidence of any of that.

 

[Kemaiku]

If you have a boring job and life in the matrix, you can't do anything about that - all jobs/lives there are pointless treading water. And if you are really determined about trying to do something about it, if you try to exit the stereotype imposed upon you, all you get for your trouble is a lobotomy or termination, courtesy of your masters.

There is absolutely no evidence of any of that.

In the trilogy they glossed over it, in Enter the Matrix, Matrix Online, Path of Neo and the short lived WB site giving the backstory, there are dozens of layers of authority down from Agents.

Each layer has a function, to keep the core program running by removing any "anomaly" that might cause a ripple of extreme variables. If that meant deleting anything from a family pet to a building, it was down in a way that didn't raise much suspicion, but they were removed and everyone's memory altered to reflect it.

The Animatrix has an episode devoted to a subtle reprogramming, a building rather than a person, but they're capable of both.

The Oracle gave humanity a "limited" choice, the ability to feel on a subconscious level that they're making their own decisions, but in truth they aren't, the Architect balances it by keeping those choices severely limited.

Everyone inside is on a leash, and the programs inside the Matrix have heard or seen little of their masters in Zero One for centuries, they take it upon themselves to do what they need to protect both.

If a human dies, they grow another one and alter the program, they see it as a day to day function. We're batteries, not people, to them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you have a boring job and life in the matrix, you can't do anything about that - all jobs/lives there are pointless treading water. And if you are really determined about trying to do something about it, if you try to exit the stereotype imposed upon you, all you get for your trouble is a lobotomy or termination, courtesy of your masters.

There is absolutely no evidence of any of that.

In the trilogy they glossed over it, in Enter the Matrix, Matrix Online, Path of Neo and the short lived WB site giving the backstory, there are dozens of layers of authority down from Agents.

Hmm. Well, I have never seen any of those (I hate to say this, but...are they canon? ). I'm only going by what I see in the films. And in them, I can only conclude that Matrix life is much like ours. "What Mister Fandango said", for example.

Also, if everyone in the Matrix is a robotic slave, then why would they have civilian police forces? Think about it.

 

[Gaith]

^ To issue traffic citations, support pastry shop cooks, and serve as visible symbols of authority?

Why are you content to assume so much regarding Zion but so unwilling to accept that there is "culture" in the Matrix?

The sweaty dance-rave-orgy of Matrix 2 certainly doesn't make me want to live there.

Fair question; like I said about the world of the Matrix, this is my subjective interpretation at play. The Council scenes and members particularly remind me of the sort of Bay Area hippies I grew up with, so I may feel more of an instinctive affinity for Zion and its inhabitants than others.

 

[Kemaiku]

I hate to say this, but...are they canon

Also, if everyone in the Matrix is a robotic slave, then why would they have civilian police forces? Think about it.

The Path of Neo is the only tie in media that isn't considered canon, the rest are. The Matrix Online's background history and files are given slightly more credence than The Animatrix which is canon but stylistically different for each segment, so the 'look' of it isn't

And the idea is to create as realistic a world as possible, law enforcement exists mainly to keep up appearances, and partly to have the humans keep each other in line and lessen the burdon on the programs. And have a police state of controlable law enforcement spying on humans, armed, used to taking orders, and can take them over at a moments notice.

As Neo said, just layers of control.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

There is absolutely no evidence of any of that.

In the trilogy they glossed over it, in Enter the Matrix, Matrix Online, Path of Neo and the short lived WB site giving the backstory, there are dozens of layers of authority down from Agents.

[...]I'm only going by what I see in the films. And in them, I can only conclude that Matrix life is much like ours. "What Mister Fandango said", for example.[...]

Chemahkuu already explained in detail how wrong you are with your wishful thinking, as per canon.

But - you actually thought that the matrix is like the real world, based on what you saw and was established in the movies? That all jobs/lives there are not pointless treading water? Really?
I guess this is what happens when one is hopelessly dependent on cuisine, desperately trying to play the 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' game, unable to process an unfamiliar reality to the point of preferring to be a slave.


What about having children in the matrix?
You may even entertain some wishful thinking about the machines allowing conjugal visits between the plugged in pod people, or conducting studies about which people want children in order to give them one.
Let me disabuse you of such notions: the most efficient procedure (meaning, almost certainly, the pocedure used) is for the machines to give the crop of newgrown children to random people, followed by rewriting the memories of said people, making them believe they wanted/had the children.

 

[Taylirious]

And the idea is to create as realistic a world as possible, law enforcement exists mainly to keep up appearances, And have a police state of controllable law enforcement spying, armed, used to taking orders, and can take them(people) over at a moments notice.

...just layers of control.

Seems right.

I edited to fit the real world.

 

[Astraboy]

I would choose whichever pill would help me forget the 2 Matrix sequels.

 

[Thestral]

The Path of Neo is the only tie in media that isn't considered canon, the rest are. The Matrix Online's background history and files are given slightly more credence than The Animatrix which is canon but stylistically different for each segment, so the 'look' of it isn't.

This all sounds a lot less interesting than the movies themselves, where the apparent conceit was that the Matrix is exactly the same as our world - all of our art and culture is just an illusion. If it's by design more bland than ours that defeats one of the most interesting parts of it (I mean, aside from leather and action and bullet-time of course).

I guess this is what happens when one is hopelessly dependent on cuisine, desperately trying to play the 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' game, unable to process an unfamiliar reality to the point of preferring to be a slave.

This is childish.

What about having children in the matrix?
You may even entertain some wishful thinking about the machines allowing conjugal visits between the plugged in pod people, or conducting studies about which people want children in order to give them one.

Doctor Who easily dealt with the question of children in a Matrix-like environment and even made it a subplot. If your whole system is built on illusion and memory alteration it would be, um, child's play.

 

[Gary7]

If only Keanu Reeves followed through with his Neo fragrance line. I'd have bought it.

 

[Leviathan]

Well it depends on a key point:

Are either of the pills bacon flavored?

 

[Kemaiku]

Only raspberry and blueberry, sorry.

 

[bbjeg]

The fact that there is no bacon in the real world is starting to make me want to change pills.