The Mark of Gideon?

[BK613]

Sorry, MaximRecoil, but the version of like being used here is not a comparative term.
From the M/W dictionary:

Definition of like

1 : similar or similarly to <They act like fools.>

2 : typical of <It is just like them to forget.>

3 : likely to <It looks like rain.>

4 : such as <Choose a color like red.>

5 : close to <The temperature reached something like 100 degrees.>

In context of the scene, this is what Kirk is saying (most likely ): There are only twelve such as it in the fleet.

Includes Enterprise.

 

[MaximRecoil]

So, if Kirk were to have said "there's only one like it in the fleet," MaximRecoil your position would be that this would mean there is in fact two?


CHRISTOPHER:
Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.

KIRK:
There's only one like it in the fleet.

Of course it would mean there are two. If Kirk had said, "There are none like it in the fleet," would you take that to mean that the Enterprise doesn't exist and/or isn't in the fleet? Since you believe that "one like it" means there is only one, then "none like it" must mean there are none at all, right? Of course, that's absurd.

The King James Version of the Bible is widely considered to be a stellar example of English language usage. Consider this verse:

And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here. And David said, There is none like that; give it me.

When David said that there is none like that, was he saying that there was no sword at all? And if so, what does "it" refer to when he said, "give it to me"? Obviously there is one sword and it is unique, which means that, according to you, "one like it" and "none like it" mean exactly the same thing, which, again, is absurd.

That doesn't appear to be the case at all. The immune systems are superstrong and the Gideonites virtually immortal, that much is solidly established in the episode. And apparently only Kirk's superdisease stands a chance against the Gideonite defenses, or else these folks would have picked an easier victim.

No, diseases simply don't exist on their planet; it is not that they exist but they are immune to them. They do have some type of regenerative power beyond normal human healing capability, which is why they say that sterilization wouldn't work, but that is not the same thing as a strong immune system.

But Kirk's profession is a violent one, and he often gets bloodied (certain sixties Hollywood conventions notwithstanding). If he were lethal to anybody coming to contact with his blood by whatever means, this would have been a major plot point: "I'm James T. Kirk, a starship commander, and a leper, the third thing actually being the most important fact about my person".

I've already said that his treated / effectively cured version of the disease could infect someone with a weak or non-existent immune system but not a person with a normal immune system. The requirement for blood transfer is just a bonus on top of that.

The need to keep him active would come from forcing the disease to get worse. The need to keep him interactive would come from maximizing the chances of an infection. Isolating and immobilizing Kirk would serve neither purpose.

What are you talking about? Kirk is effectively cured, he doesn't have a "disease" to get worse. Also, he isn't directly infecting anyone; they infected the girl with a serum made from his blood. In other words, there is no need for him to be active or interactive.

Neither of those sounds like a drawback. "Nothing to indicate" applies to most things in Trek or other TV:

No, it doesn't. In fact, older TV shows in particular tended to make sure that everything was spelled out explicitly. But regardless of the style of writing, whether it be to spell everything out or to merely give clues, it is all a form of indication, and when there is nothing to indicate something, then it doesn't exist / didn't happen in the story, period.

we can take certain things for granted even if they aren't explicated (like you are trying to do when claiming, without support, that Gideonite immune systems "ought to be" weak).

You're confused. There is something to indicate their weak immune system, and that is, "reality" (i.e., in reality, people who are never exposed to any diseases have weak immune systems). A work of fiction is "like reality unless noted". On the other hand, there is nothing to indicate that Kirk was drugged; the idea that he was is nothing more than what's colloquially known as "fan wanking".

And medical ineptitude is the very thing that might make them resort to tactics and dosages that might otherwise surprise us.

Again, there is nothing to indicate that Kirk was drugged. Had the writer intended such a thing, then it has to be indicated by Kirk acting like he was drugged, i.e., acting groggy, "out of it", etc. Kirk simply acted like Kirk in this episode.

Which was wasted effort, as no such plan was required in the first place. Indeed, any mention of such a plan is Kirk's own vain fiction.

Again, what are you talking about? Kirk didn't tell of the plan for him to fall in love with the girl in the hopes that he would voluntarily stick around, the father of the girl did, so how could it be "Kirk's own vain fiction"?

What nonsense is that? You don't have to arrange atoms in order to get perfect starship interiors - that task is coarse work currently handled by carpenters. An object printer based on current technologies could manage that just fine.

Again, you're confused. First, you said:

"The thing is, this was nonsense in the 1960s, but an accepted Trek conceit in the 1980s and quickly approaching reality as of the 21st century."

Which was in reply to the following excerpt of mine:

"The only way they could do that is if they had "replicator" type technology, which can scan the Enterprise on a molecular level and perfectly recreate it on a molecular level."

So your assertion that this is "quickly approaching reality as of the 21st century" is wrong. Whether or not you would have to "arrange atoms in order to get perfect starship interiors" is a separate issue, and yes, you would have to be able to "arrange atoms" in order to make a perfect replica of anything.

Whether the replicators of TNG manage individual atoms is unspecified; they appear capable of it, but i.e. edible food might require relatively little of such precision and then lots of repetition.

This is beside the point, but I believe they are based on transporter technology, and transporters definitely map individual atoms so that matter (which includes people) can be annihilated and then recreated from energy as a perfect copy of the original.

Which is basically the perfect proof for what I was saying: random factors don't work to the advantage of the people Kirk faces.

In reality it is contrary to what you are saying. There is nothing at all special about getting a visit from Kirk, so much so that he often shows up uninvited and unwelcomed.

A lot of deliberate effort must be involved to get Kirk to attend when he's needed, as there is only one Kirk in the universe (usually); a bit less effort is needed to keep him out, as there are plenty of non-Kirk options available.

If you specifically want a visit from Kirk, wait until he is more or less in the area and request it. Kirk does menial errands all the time; it is no big deal. And since the UFP is trying to get them to join, why would they have a problem with sending Kirk if that's what they want?

The latter requires far more under-the-counter dealings than the former. Gideonite spies could theoretically achieve the former without Starfleet help; Gideon could never achieve the latter without such help (or at least the odds would be astronomically against it, and in that case the adventure happening at all is a sign of divine intervention).

Again, a visit from Kirk is no big deal. He's not a movie star.

Hodin goes on and on about their "love of life" with such religious fervor that he'd get a padded cell even at the Bible Belt.

Absurd.

Their hangups about contraception are extremely explicit in the plot (and indeed the whole episode seems to have been written to comment on that real-world issue).

I said that they have no hangups about healthcare, so this is a non sequitur.

It's absolutely central to the story that Kirk is a voice of reason coming up against lack of reason on a weird planet. So the Gideonites being unreasonable and inhuman isn't even an argument; it's a foregone fact.

So devout Christians/Catholics are "unreasonable and inhuman" and "officially nuts"?

Since they in fact do,

Not with proper language usage they don't, and proper language usage was the context of my post. My first sentence in my first post on that topic was, "If his wording was accurate, then there are 13 in the fleet."

you have only managed to establish how language actually works: it bows to no one authority - but does bow to the dictatorship of the majority.

I know how language actually works, and there is far from a consensus that the meaning of "like" aligns with what the "there are only 12 ships in the fleet" crowd here thinks it is.

Sorry, MaximRecoil, but the version of like being used here is not a comparative term.

Yes, it is a comparative term, an inherently comparative term in this context, no less (because its definition includes the results of a comparison, i.e., "the same"). The Enterprise is being compared to other ships in the fleet, "like" meaning that they are the same (and sameness can only be determined via a comparison).

Definition of like

1 : similar or similarly to <They act like fools.>

2 : typical of <It is just like them to forget.>

3 : likely to <It looks like rain.>

4 : such as <Choose a color like red.>

5 : close to <The temperature reached something like 100 degrees.>

In context of the scene, this is what Kirk is saying (most likely ): There are only twelve such as it in the fleet.

Includes Enterprise.

Say what? The definition you "bolded" is not the one which applies to this context, in any way, shape, or form, and that you think it is means you don't understand what is meant by the number 4 definition. "Such as" means the same thing as "for example", or "e.g." (exempli gratia).

Choose a color, such as red.
Choose a color, e.g., red.
Choose a color, for example, red.
Choose a color, like red.

"There are only 12, for example, it in the fleet."

No.

The definition of "like" which applies to this context is ...

1. having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to."there were other suits like mine in the shop"

... and two or more things can only be found to be the same or similar as the result of a comparison. Without a comparison there is no way to know whether two or more things are the same or similar.

 

[BK613]

^^ LOL.
"There are only twelve starships such as the Enterprise in the fleet."
"There are only twelve starships like the Enterprise in the fleet."
"There are only twelve such as it in the fleet."
"There are only twelve like it in the fleet."

It is the exactly the correct usage.

 

[Poltargyst]

There is no comparison. Kirk said there are 12 of that class of ship. Period.

Now you're just making stuff up. The actual quote has already been posted.

It's not just a holodeck, it's an intelligent, mind-reading holodeck not unlike the Shore Leave planet's technology. It was simply programmed to show Kirk everything he was expecting to see about his Enterprise with the added programming that he was not to see any of his crewmates. This is how the ship accurately includes even the smallest of details that Kirk expects to see.

That's some interesting homemade retconning, considering holodecks weren't a part of the TOS universe. Also, you know what was going on in Shore Leave because it was explained. That's how writing works, especially for a '60s TV show, i.e., things intended by the writer are explained or otherwise established onscreen. There is nothing in this episode which establishes that it was anything other than a mockup of the Enterprise.

There are 12 Constitution class ships in the fleet, and that is what Kirk intended when he made his statement.

Characters in fiction mean what they say unless there is something to indicate otherwise. In standard English, Kirk's sentence means there are 13 ships.

You didn't really need to argue so hard against my holodeck suggestion. I am aware I'm engaging in fanfiction for amusement purposes only. Still, it's not outside the realm of possibility given what we see in other TOS episodes, and we do see a pre-holodeck in TAS, so the technology is not far away. I am not expecting my intelligent, mind-reading holodeck to be the accepted answer here, just trying to creatively come up with a solution that fits the available evidence. Otherwise you still have to explain how the Gideons got so much personal information about the Enterprise that wouldn't show up in any schematics.

There are ways of saying things in English that are not grammatically correct, but are the accepted way of speaking nonetheless. Many people say "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less", but we know what they mean. I and others believe that when Kirk said there are 12 ships like the Enterprise in the fleet, he was including the Enterprise. Since we have other source materials indicating that there are 12 ships in the fleet, it feels safe enough to say there are 12. If in your personal head canon you want there to be 13, knock yourself out. Have you ever seen another source suggesting there are 13 Constitution-class ships in the fleet?

We have long since arrived at the point of agreeing to disagree. Enjoy your 13-ship fleet, and I will enjoy my 12-ship fleet.

 

[MaximRecoil]

^^ LOL.

Irony.

"There are only twelve starships such as the Enterprise in the fleet."
"There are only twelve starships like the Enterprise in the fleet."
"There are only twelve such as it in the fleet."
"There are only twelve like it in the fleet."

It is the exactly the correct usage.

No. The sentences in bold are nonsensical if "such as" is applied in accordance with your number 4 definition. As I said, substitute "for example" or "e.g." and you should see why.

Either way, the meaning of Kirk's sentence is:

"There are only 12 ships that are the same as the Enterprise in the fleet."

And that is, in fact, a comparison. It is 100% impossible to know that two or more things are the same/similar without comparing them, so "like", meaning same/similar, is inherently a comparative term.

 

[Drone]

T'Grinch, please return and do something holiday magical to end this harangue once and for all! You seem to have been effectively ignored last time.

 

[MaximRecoil]

There are ways of saying things in English that are not grammatically correct, but are the accepted way of speaking nonetheless.

The "12 ships total" interpretation doesn't stem from any generally accepted way of speaking. It seems to stem from people wanting to make other sources match what Kirk said in this episode, which is irrelevant to what his sentence actually means in standard English.

Many people say "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less", but we know what they mean.

No, they mean, "I could care less." Its origin was as a response to someone who had just said, "I couldn't care less," or as a followup to one's own utterance of that sentence:

Person A: "I couldn't care less."
Person B: "I could care less, but I don't see how."

Over time it became abbreviated and a standalone saying.

I and others believe that when Kirk said there are 12 ships like the Enterprise in the fleet, he was including the Enterprise. Since we have other source materials indicating that there are 12 ships in the fleet, it feels safe enough to say there are 12. If in your personal head canon you want there to be 13, knock yourself out. Have you ever seen another source suggesting there are 13 Constitution-class ships in the fleet?

I don't have a "personal head canon". This is about what his sentence actually means. Tell me, what would it mean if Kirk had said:

1. "There are none like it in the fleet."
2. "There is only one like it in the fleet."

In number 1, how many Constitution-class starships are there in the fleet?

In number 2, how many Constitution-class starships are there in the fleet?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

This is about what his sentence actually means. Tell me, what would it mean if Kirk had said:

1. "There are none like it in the fleet."
2. "There is only one like it in the fleet."

In number 1, how many Constitution-class starships are there in the fleet?

In number 2, how many Constitution-class starships are there in the fleet?

It all hinges on whether the speaker means to imply the word "other." If there are only twelve others like it, then there are thirteen. But Kirk didn't specify "twelve others," so if he was speaking properly, there are twelve in all.

Unless you very reasonably interpret Kirk's ambiguous statement the other way.

 

[FormerLurker]

He's just going to dispute the meaning of the word "other". Like he did last page, and the page before.

 

[MaximRecoil]

It all hinges on whether the speaker means to imply the word "other." If there are only twelve others like it, then there are thirteen. But Kirk didn't specify "twelve others," so if he was speaking properly, there are twelve in all.

As I've already said, saying "others" is redundant. "Like" establishes a comparison, and two or more things are needed for a comparison (so "others" is not only implied, its concept is inherently present by definition of the words used). If he was speaking properly, there are 13 in all.

Unless you very reasonably interpret Kirk's ambiguous statement the other way.

It wasn't ambiguous at all. If you believe there are only 12 ships, then Kirk was saying, "The Enterprise is like the Enterprise," which is an invalid use of the word "like". You can't compare the Enterprise to the Enterprise because the Enterprise is only one thing in this context.

He's just going to dispute the meaning of the word "other". Like he did last page, and the page before.

Given that I did no such thing, consider your false allegation dismissed out of hand. This is the second time in this thread that you've simply made something up out of whole cloth.

 

[FormerLurker]

You just disputed the meaning of the word "other". See your response to the first quote in your post.

As for "others" being redundant, and "The Enterprise is like the Enterprise" being an invalid use of "like", you'll have to go back about eight hundred years and tell all Middle and Modern English speakers that they don't know how to use the words, because they've been using them that way for about that long.

Let me ask you this; does the phrase "An experience like no other" mean you haven't experienced anything at all?

 

[Poltargyst]

I wonder who wrote the Wiki entry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_Is_Yesterday

"The man is at first confused by his new surroundings, then amazed by what the future holds, and impressed and awed when he discovers that Enterprise is one of 12 such starships under the authority of a combined service and that the computer calls Kirk "Dear", having been overhauled on the female-dominated planet Cygnet XIV (the technicians there thought the computer needed a personality)."

We all know that Wiki isn't authoritative, but it is interesting to me how many of us hear that line and interpret it as meaning 12 total ships in the fleet while MaximRecoil valiantly stands alone.

Should I edit the Wiki entry to read "13 such ships"?

 

[T'Bonz]

I've had enough of this bullshit. God forbid I enjoy the fucking holidays without some people acting like children.

Next time I tell people to stop and they don't, I won't warn you, I'll toss you off of the damned BBS.

Stop means stop. And log off the damned computer and go jog or something if you can't discuss a make-believe show without fighting.