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The Mark of Gideon?

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I wonder what that mock up of the Enterprise looked like from the outside...

Probably a lot like the Enterprise sets on the Desilu soundstages, just scaled up to mimic the entire ship. Plywood and wires and stagehands keeping it all running.

I wonder how the Gideonites would have dealt with Kirk attempting to leave in a shuttlecraft..if there were any shuttle mockups or even a hangar deck.

Although the Miranda class Reliant made its first appearance in TWOK, I'd like to believe that Starfleet had several dozen in the TOS era, in pre-refit configuration, not to mention all of the other classes seen in the Franz Joseph works. All were starships, and each one had a captain.
 
Kirk said "there are only twelve like it in the fleet", which suggests there were 13: the Enterprise plus the twelve that were like it.
That would suggest that the Enterprise isn't "in the fleet."
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

If it is in the fleet, which it must be, it is one of twelve. "This one and eleven others" not "This one, and twelve more besides". "There are only twelve like it in the fleet" means the fleet has only twelve of that class.
 
Kirk said "there are only twelve like it in the fleet", which suggests there were 13: the Enterprise plus the twelve that were like it.
That would suggest that the Enterprise isn't "in the fleet."
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

If it is in the fleet, which it must be, it is one of twelve. "This one and eleven others" not "This one, and twelve more besides". "There are only twelve like it in the fleet" means the fleet has only twelve of that class.
If his wording was accurate, then there are 13 in the fleet. In order for something to be like something, there has to be two somethings. In order for 2 somethings to be like something, there has to be 3 somethings, and so on.
 
Starship captains being a rare breed is mainly a "Court Martial" thing, with Commodore Stone saying things like "not one man in a million" or "no starship captain has ever stood trial before (even though it's standard procedure at loss of ship)".

Even if there are a hundred starship commanders

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think that the first point offered in the example really says very much. " Not one man in a million could do what you and I have done". At this point in time, a million Terran males wouldn't be considered to be statistically significant at all. That's assuming that the comment is exclusive to Terrans, as we know there is at least one non-Terran captain of a Constitution class ship contemporaneously. Or if the comment's intention didn't include non-Federation male commanders of starships, who presumably would face the same plethora of life and death decisions that Stone next mentions, though I would tend to doubt that he meant to extend his implication that far.

As to the second part, per our knowledge of Starfleet history then, do we even know if there has been a captain that survived the loss of his command? I don't believe so, in which case Stone's statement would be accurate.
 
Certainly it would be for the common good if we were to do away with the idea that literally only a handful of Starfleet's officers are starship captains. I guess we could strike a balance of still insisting that "starships" at this time are the "battleships" of the fleet, even though said fleet has thousands of vessels and no shortage of commanders who might carry diseases suited for the needs of Gideon.

However, that wouldn't really make a difference, as the issue is with Gideon getting exactly what it wants. Odds would still be greatly against a randomly assigned starship having a suitably infected officer in command - and no other officer would do, as insisting that "Lieutenant Rondham from Engineering" beam down to do diplomacy would be impossible for the Gideonites.

And of course we don't want to make Kirk's ship too prestigious a command, as she's witnessed doing such menial missions and never really hailed as special by design or size. And this before we choose whether to take into account the much larger contemporaries from the other timeline...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Kirk's hand is hurt. The Gideonites say it's because they took a pathogen sample clumsily, due to their alleged lack of medical knowledge. But how could Kirk's pathogen as such infect anybody? Kirk has spilled his blood (and supposedly other body fluids as well) on and potentially in many people already, with nary a concern - the disease clearly doesn't result in infections without some sort of extra help.

These people would have a very weak immune system, given that they'd never been exposed to any diseases whatsoever. So an already-treated / effectively cured version of Kirk's disease could be harmless to normal people while still being infectious to them. Also, getting blood on you doesn't necessarily mean it gets into your bloodstream. That only happens if you have a cut or whatever through which the blood can enter your bloodstream.

The plot makes significantly more sense if the medical goal here is to somehow activate Kirk's disease and then wait for it to grow in strength enough to infect Odona. A means of keeping Kirk not just captive but also active and interactive would be called for, then.

See above. Plus, there is no need to keep him "active and interactive". The time needed for those things you are imagining would pass even if Kirk was taking a nap like he did in the medieval jail in the penultimate episode.

But if we assume it was drugs, the episode makes more sense. So where's the drawback?

Because there's nothing to indicate it, not to mention something to indicate otherwise (i.e., their admitted medical ineptitude). Invent whatever you want for your own private version of the story; it does nothing to change the onscreen content.

Definitely so, even in this "activated disease" scenario. What the replica accomplishes (besides making this bottle show visually more interesting and the concept more alien) is confusing and delaying Kirk's attempts at finding a way out. So our argument could be that in addition to finding out about Kirk's disease, the Gideonites also found out about his resourcefulness, and rightly prepared against it. If the delaying act failed, the locked room could always be applied next.

It is far easier to make an escape-proof room than to build a perfect mockup of the Enterprise interior. When there's obviously no way out at the moment, Kirk likes to catch 40 winks.

This isn't really a required part of the plan at all.

I've already explained why the plan for Kirk to fall in love with the girl in the hopes that he would voluntarily stick around for her sake was absurd.

The thing is, this was nonsense in the 1960s, but an accepted Trek conceit in the 1980s and quickly approaching reality as of the 21st century.

Not even close to approaching reality. There are, e.g., nearly 5 septillion (4,891,500,000,000,000,000,000,000) atoms in just a pound of iron. Just to get started on the task of building a clone of a complex structure which is a perfect copy down to the atomic and/or molecular level, you need to first map out the X,Y,Z coordinates of every atom and/or molecule. Do you think any computer is coming along any time soon which can store and process umpteen zillion bajillion katrillion discrete data points?

All it really takes is the additional step of making this less than Kirk's best day at work ever, and the concept that Kirk has his horrible disease activated delivers that part nicely enough.

"Less than his best day"? Maybe if he had recently gone blind and had a numb/tingling sensation everywhere disrupting his sense of touch/feel, then him being fooled by an approximation would be plausible. Of course he would be fooled by a perfect copy, but making the perfect copy in the first place is implausible.

They had lots of access to things way beyond pure knowledge. They got Kirk to come and "negotiate" with them! Given that Kirk almost inevitably was the only starship captain in existence suited for their needs (not too many starship captains around in TOS, or so goes the claim), this speaks of direct influence over Starfleet decisions.

That isn't a big deal. Plenty of people who didn't want Kirk around at all got stuck with him, such as the guy in "The Man Trap" (also note the trivial nature of Kirk's "mission" in that episode).

The full specs of Kirk's ship are peanuts in comparison.

No, classified information is not peanuts compared to a visit from a Captain who does plenty of ho-hum errands for Starfleet. Additionally, "full specs" isn't even close to enough information to build a perfect copy of a lived-in and well-used ship. The best you could do is make a perfect copy of a brand new ship of that model.

Ultimately, what saves the concept of the episode is that the Gideonites are officially nuts. They have religious hang-ups about birth control and health care, and consider themselves driven into a corner. They can be allowed just about any approach to their problem, really - the more nonsensical, the truer it will sound.

No, they aren't officially "nuts", and they have no hangups about healthcare; they simply don't need it because they never get sick. Also, if written properly, a "nuts" plan is indicated as such in the story, usually by non-nuts characters pointing out or exploiting the flaws in the plan. In this episode, the various absurdities were accepted at face value by everyone, which means the writer was a ham n' egger.
 
That would suggest that the Enterprise isn't "in the fleet."
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

If it is in the fleet, which it must be, it is one of twelve. "This one and eleven others" not "This one, and twelve more besides". "There are only twelve like it in the fleet" means the fleet has only twelve of that class.
If his wording was accurate, then there are 13 in the fleet. In order for something to be like something, there has to be two somethings. In order for 2 somethings to be like something, there has to be 3 somethings, and so on.
First, you're ignoring the obvious that the Enterprise is one of those things. Second, the quote is more plain than you say. Kirk doesn't say there are twelve more like it, he says there are twelve like it, with it plain from his phrasing that the Enterprise is one of those twelve.
 
First, you're ignoring the obvious that the Enterprise is one of those things.

I'm not ignoring anything. "Like" is a comparative term; it is a variant of "alike". Neither one of those terms make any sense in the context of only one item, because comparisons are not made between an item and itself. In fact, "between an item and itself" is nonsensical, since "between" demands two things. This extends out indefinitely; i.e., if there are X number of things like something, the total number of somethings is always X+1.

Second, the quote is more plain than you say. Kirk doesn't say there are twelve more like it
That's because "more" is redundant. "Like" establishes that items are being compared, and items don't get compared to themselves (not by people who have a firm grasp of the English language anyway; it is a nonsensical concept unless you are doing something like comparing two or more different states of the same item separated by time, such as "my old car is still like it was when it was new"). According to your reasoning, the Enterprise is being compared to 11 other ships, and then being compared to itself.

he says there are twelve like it, with it plain from his phrasing that the Enterprise is one of those twelve.
In reality, it is plain from the meaning of the words used that there are 13 total. Of course, someone could use that sentence with the intention of conveying the meaning that there are only 12 ships total, but that would simply be a case of poor wording on their part.
 
It's not just a holodeck, it's an intelligent, mind-reading holodeck not unlike the Shore Leave planet's technology. It was simply programmed to show Kirk everything he was expecting to see about his Enterprise with the added programming that he was not to see any of his crewmates. This is how the ship accurately includes even the smallest of details that Kirk expects to see.

There are 12 Constitution class ships in the fleet, and that is what Kirk intended when he made his statement.
 
There is no comparison. Kirk said there are 12 of that class of ship. Period.

Now you're just making stuff up. The actual quote has already been posted.

It's not just a holodeck, it's an intelligent, mind-reading holodeck not unlike the Shore Leave planet's technology. It was simply programmed to show Kirk everything he was expecting to see about his Enterprise with the added programming that he was not to see any of his crewmates. This is how the ship accurately includes even the smallest of details that Kirk expects to see.

That's some interesting homemade retconning, considering holodecks weren't a part of the TOS universe. Also, you know what was going on in Shore Leave because it was explained. That's how writing works, especially for a '60s TV show, i.e., things intended by the writer are explained or otherwise established onscreen. There is nothing in this episode which establishes that it was anything other than a mockup of the Enterprise.

There are 12 Constitution class ships in the fleet, and that is what Kirk intended when he made his statement.
Characters in fiction mean what they say unless there is something to indicate otherwise. In standard English, Kirk's sentence means there are 13 ships.
 
Not according to the English most people speak. There are only 3 bathrooms like it in this house does not mean there are 4 bathrooms.
 
Not according to the English most people speak.

I've already established otherwise. "Like" is a comparative term, and things don't get compared to themselves.

Simple Definition of compare
  • to say that (something) is similar to something else
  • : to look at (two or more things) closely in order to see what is similar or different about them or in order to decide which one is better
  • : to be as good or as bad as something else : to be on the same level or in the same category as something else
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compare
When you say that something is like something, that is a comparison, and a comparison requires two or more somethings. So, if, as you claim, the sentence "there are only twelve like it in the fleet" means there are only 12 ships in the fleet, this is what would be being said:

The Enterprise is like ship 1
The Enterprise is like ship 2
The Enterprise is like ship 3
The Enterprise is like ship 4
The Enterprise is like ship 5
The Enterprise is like ship 6
The Enterprise is like ship 7
The Enterprise is like ship 8
The Enterprise is like ship 9
The Enterprise is like ship 10
The Enterprise is like ship 11
The Enterprise is like the Enterprise

That last one is obviously nonsensical, since it is not a valid comparison (because a comparison requires two or more somethings, and the Enterprise is only one something), thus, not a valid use of the word "like". That means that there is a ship 12, and ships 1 through 12, plus the Enterprise, equals 13 ships.

There are only 3 bathrooms like it in this house does not mean there are 4 bathrooms.
This bathroom is like bathroom 1
This bathroom is like bathroom 2
This bathroom is like this bathroom

Again, the last one is nonsensical (see above), so there has to be a bathroom 3, and bathrooms 1 through 3, plus "this bathroom", equals 4 bathrooms.
 
So, if Kirk were to have said "there's only one like it in the fleet," MaximRecoil your position would be that this would mean there is in fact two?


CHRISTOPHER:

Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.

KIRK:

There's only one like it in the fleet.
 
The thing is, the statement is not perfectly definitive, one way or the other. Perhaps the intention was:

CHRISTOPHER:
Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.

KIRK:
There's only one (a)like (to) it in the fleet

As for mind-reading pseudo-holodecks:

  1. Perhaps this tech is why Starfleet was so interested in adopting Gideon in the first place, and
  2. The Enterprise already had holodecks in any case! Either see the TAS episode Practical Joker or else the entry in TMOST under recreation facilities.
 
12 or 13. A question for the ages.

Oh, for God's sake, give up this what is is nonsense!!! Isn't there a clear and unambiguous quotation in one of those numerous Trek source books that I've never read, that answers this so it can be put to bed? :rolleyes:
 
result in infections without some sort of extra help. These people would have a very weak immune system, given that they'd never been exposed to any diseases whatsoever.
That doesn't appear to be the case at all. The immune systems are superstrong and the Gideonites virtually immortal, that much is solidly established in the episode. And apparently only Kirk's superdisease stands a chance against the Gideonite defenses, or else these folks would have picked an easier victim.

Also, getting blood on you doesn't necessarily mean it gets into your bloodstream. That only happens if you have a cut or whatever through which the blood can enter your bloodstream.
But Kirk's profession is a violent one, and he often gets bloodied (certain sixties Hollywood conventions notwithstanding). If he were lethal to anybody coming to contact with his blood by whatever means, this would have been a major plot point: "I'm James T. Kirk, a starship commander, and a leper, the third thing actually being the most important fact about my person".

Plus, there is no need to keep him "active and interactive". The time needed for those things you are imagining would pass even if Kirk was taking a nap like he did in the medieval jail in the penultimate episode.
The need to keep him active would come from forcing the disease to get worse. The need to keep him interactive would come from maximizing the chances of an infection. Isolating and immobilizing Kirk would serve neither purpose.

Because there's nothing to indicate it, not to mention something to indicate otherwise (i.e., their admitted medical ineptitude).
Neither of those sounds like a drawback. "Nothing to indicate" applies to most things in Trek or other TV: we can take certain things for granted even if they aren't explicated (like you are trying to do when claiming, without support, that Gideonite immune systems "ought to be" weak). And medical ineptitude is the very thing that might make them resort to tactics and dosages that might otherwise surprise us.

I've already explained why the plan for Kirk to fall in love with the girl in the hopes that he would voluntarily stick around for her sake was absurd.
Which was wasted effort, as no such plan was required in the first place. Indeed, any mention of such a plan is Kirk's own vain fiction.

Not even close to approaching reality. There are, e.g., nearly 5 septillion (4,891,500,000,000,000,000,000,000) atoms in just a pound of iron. Just to get started on the task of building a clone of a complex structure which is a perfect copy down to the atomic and/or molecular level, you need to first map out the X,Y,Z coordinates of every atom and/or molecule. Do you think any computer is coming along any time soon which can store and process umpteen zillion bajillion katrillion discrete data points?
What nonsense is that? You don't have to arrange atoms in order to get perfect starship interiors - that task is coarse work currently handled by carpenters. An object printer based on current technologies could manage that just fine.

Whether the replicators of TNG manage individual atoms is unspecified; they appear capable of it, but i.e. edible food might require relatively little of such precision and then lots of repetition.

Plenty of people who didn't want Kirk around at all got stuck with him
Which is basically the perfect proof for what I was saying: random factors don't work to the advantage of the people Kirk faces. A lot of deliberate effort must be involved to get Kirk to attend when he's needed, as there is only one Kirk in the universe (usually); a bit less effort is needed to keep him out, as there are plenty of non-Kirk options available.

No, classified information is not peanuts compared to a visit from a Captain who does plenty of ho-hum errands for Starfleet.
The latter requires far more under-the-counter dealings than the former. Gideonite spies could theoretically achieve the former without Starfleet help; Gideon could never achieve the latter without such help (or at least the odds would be astronomically against it, and in that case the adventure happening at all is a sign of divine intervention).

No, they aren't officially "nuts", and they have no hangups about healthcare
Hodin goes on and on about their "love of life" with such religious fervor that he'd get a padded cell even at the Bible Belt. Their hangups about contraception are extremely explicit in the plot (and indeed the whole episode seems to have been written to comment on that real-world issue).

It's absolutely central to the story that Kirk is a voice of reason coming up against lack of reason on a weird planet. So the Gideonites being unreasonable and inhuman isn't even an argument; it's a foregone fact.

I've already established otherwise. "Like" is a comparative term, and things don't get compared to themselves.
Since they in fact do, you have only managed to establish how language actually works: it bows to no one authority - but does bow to the dictatorship of the majority.

Personal opinions are fine. When they contradict evidence, two paths can be chosen: ignoring evidence usually leads to loss of predictive value in the model. (It's just noteworthy that Star Trek, being a piece of fiction, doesn't necessarily work that way, as that universe doesn't feature any built-in causality other than that which is in the eye of the beholder.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
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