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The Maquis

By "this", do you mean my original question?
Yes. He had a spiel about the whole issue. I feel like Journey's End was meant to set up the situation for the Maquis to come into existence but they shouldn't have been regarded as Federation citizens anymore.
Was Chakotay from Dorvan 5? Or was that just something from Trek Lit. and not in actual canon?
That was the intention according to this link http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Dorvan_V
But his homeworld and Dorvan 5 can't be the same place, since Dorvan 5 was only settled in 2350 and Chakotay was born on his homeworld in 2329 and his people had been there for several generations
 
There are no stardates in "The Maquis", either part. Indeed, the entire latter third of Season 2 is free of stardates, either spoken references or random computer display glimpses. It is only in the penultimate "Tribunal" that we get a stardate, 47944, and that's three full episodes after the Maquis story. The other bracket would be from "Shadowplay", at 47603 and again three full stories before the Maquis one.

"Preemptive Strike" is very close to the end of the stardate year, at 47941. It sounds very unlikely for "The Maquis" to have happened just 4 stardates before "Tribunal", so there was plenty of time for the Maquis to become established before they made their first TNG appearance.



Describing it in those terms is a bit misleading. The UFP never "was there" in any substantial force - frontier colonies in Trek appear to fend for themselves regardless of the circumstances. There was a Starfleet liaison officer at the DMZ, and he promptly went native. But no actual "pulling out" took place, either in terms of Starfleet retreating (since Starfleet wasn't there to begin with) or the UFP withdrawing claims (because all the planets officially remained part of the UFP even after being renamed "Maquis planets", their colonists remaining under Sisko's jurisdiction).



That's an interesting question indeed - would those Bajorans be UFP citizens or not? Was Ensign Ro, and if not, does Starfleet often admit personnel who don't have a UFP passport? Also, how many non-UFP Vulcans or Bolians are there?

Citizenship might not be a huge issue overall, as Kirk treated UFP subjects, counterculture separatists and utter aliens with equal contempt. Also, Chakotay's troupe was quite multicultural or at least multispecies yet treated homogeneously by Janeway (and, in some alternate futures, by Starfleet and the UFP). Because all were UFP subjects? Because citizenship did not matter?

Timo Saloniemi


Well, even Federation planets had a great deal of autonomy for self-governance, provided they were roughly within the same ideological ball park vis-a-vis rights and rational law, unified socioculture, etc. It stands to reason that there could be a great amount of interplanetary latitude for colonization by individuals; but if, say, a purely Klingon colony wished to occupy a planet in the DMZ or elsewhere, I suppose you would start dealing with red tape. (Crash colonies notwithstanding). That is, the question of citizenship/immigration is probably both more complicated and simpler than our present definitions.

I don't see how Bajoran citizens could have been considered Federation Citizens, in light of Bajor's indeterminate status. And I highly doubt Klingons were either. I'd probably call them Residents but not Citizens (a rough equivalent of green card holders in the USA). Or migrant workers, or simply, covert mercenaries.

I agree with your insightful clarification of the Federation's ongoing absence in the DMZ; I think it describes the situation more completely. What I was getting at, was that those planets had enjoyed Federation protection, though a Cardie threat had been largley moot until that point. The Fed presence was implicit if there were no actual littoral pickets or patrols.

Once the Fed ceded those borders, that left the DMZ with a power vacuum. Soon to be filled by hired thugs strapping Galor cannons to shuttlecraft, trying to empty the colonies on behalf of the Cardassian Union. The Maquis ignored the Fed peace treaty (that ignored them), and defended themselves, becoming terrorists in Cardassia's eyes, and criminals in the Federation's (IIRC).

Before the events of the Dominion War - (ie, being decimated by the Jem'Hadar) - the Maquis were on their way to creating a nation; had they succeeded I suspect they would have assimilated all their residents and citizens of other worlds; creating their own multicultural citizenship; as well as becoming a regional power equal at the bargaining table between the Fed and the CU. I suspect if that had happened, resident aliens (ha, literally) either accepted Maquis citizenship or remained a resident on a visa. Protections by their respective governments would likely be limited to consular territories and assistance with justice systems, diplomatic incidences, evacuations, etc. And - the odd decloaking Klingon Bird of Prey.
 
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I suspect if that had happened, resident aliens (ha, literally) either accepted Maquis citizenship or remained a resident on a visa. Protections by their respective governments would likely be limited to consular territories and assistance with justice systems, diplomatic incidences, evacuations, etc.

The Maquis did not strike me as the type who would care about matters like those.

Indeed, I always wondered how the Maquis leadership (to the extent that an organization like this even has leadership) actually reacted to those colonists who refused to fight. Were they subject to harassment or abuse? Were they derided or even imprisoned as being "counter-revolutionary" or whatever the hell they call it? Were ALL colonists in the DMZ regarded as members of the cadre for life, and woe betide anyone who refused to follow the will of the junta?

I mean, I'm not talking about Federation informants or anything like that (although we do know that the Maquis were fairly ruthless towards spies - just ask Cing'ta :( ), just those colonists who thought that taking up arms was not to their liking. Would have been interesting to see how they were treated.

In any case, it would have definitely helped if most of the Maquis "in action" that we saw, hadn't been the ones led by such an insufferable jackass like Eddington. If every Maquis ep on DS9 had featured Chakotay's people, the Maquis would have probably come off as much more sympathetic.

All we got instead were Eddington and his bunch of "Maquis State" goons. :sigh:
 
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I have grave doubts that the Federation or especially the Cardassians ever would have recognized a Maquis "nation". Wouldn't that have essentially involved bowing to the demands of terrorists who by that point had openly attacked Starfleet and Cardassian vessels? In any case, I think the only person we ever heard make that claim was Eddington, and I don't entirely consider him to be a reliable source.

Granted for awhile there the Cardassians weren't in a position to do much about it, but Sisko himself notes that the Maquis played a part in Cardassia's alliance with the Dominion (though it's not clear how much of Cardassia's leadership beyond Dukat had anything to do with that alliance).

I'm sure Starfleet could have squashed the Maquis themselves (humanely, of course) had they ever had the collective will and desire to do so.
 
I have grave doubts that the Federation or especially the Cardassians ever would have recognized a Maquis "nation". Wouldn't that have essentially involved bowing to the demands of terrorists who by that point had openly attacked Starfleet and Cardassian vessels? In any case, I think the only person we ever heard make that claim was Eddington, and I don't entirely consider him to be a reliable source.

Eddington would not be a reliable source if he claimed that water was wet.
 
^^Agreed.

Worse, it suggested that Eddington was somehow the leader of the Maquis entire...presuming they had such organization...which I find difficult to believe.

OTOH, Bernie Casey didn't do a very compelling job when he was given the chance.

I wonder what might have been if they'd had a friend of Sisko's who came off more likeably and had at least as much of a presence as Eddington. Not quite the good cop to Eddington's bad cop, but at least a different perspective on matters.

Seeing Tom Riker again might have been nice as well, though probably not viable. I also have mixed feelings on Kira's observations that Tom was just trying to step out of Will's shadow.

Or Ro Laren. Though in that case I would have liked to see Patrick Stewart show up and get the chance to deck her in at least one episode (though I like where she ends up in the novels).
 
Eddington was only the leader of his own group (which I will continue to call the Maquis State, as I find Eddington the moral equivalent of, well, a certain other ******* State).

That's the trouble with groups like this - there IS no overarching leadership. What you end up with, are just a bunch of cells, all of whom end up squabbling over who's more dedicated to the Revolution. :rolleyes:
 
Actually, a group of Maquis coming forward and claiming (perhaps dishonestly) to disagree with Eddington's choices and want something done about the situation could have made for a compelling two-parter, at least.
 
I don't see how Bajoran citizens could have been considered Federation Citizens, in light of Bajor's indeterminate status.

A couple of refugees say "we no longer have a nation", and the UFP gives them passports in a moment of political propaganda victory. Where's the problem? It's not as if their Cardassians masters would actually want them back.

And I highly doubt Klingons were either. I'd probably call them Residents but not Citizens (a rough equivalent of green card holders in the USA). Or migrant workers, or simply, covert mercenaries.

I really can't see where you're coming from here. Why would the biology of Worf be a showstopper in him getting UFP citizenship? Why couldn't, say, Tosk join up any time he wished?

We don't know if being UFP citizen is a burden or a boon. In old Rome, it was actually pretty advantageous for the government to dish out citizenships as free gifts. What specific disadvantages would there be for the UFP?

Indeed, I always wondered how the Maquis leadership (to the extent that an organization like this even has leadership) actually reacted to those colonists who refused to fight. Were they subject to harassment or abuse? Were they derided or even imprisoned as being "counter-revolutionary" or whatever the hell they call it? Were ALL colonists in the DMZ regarded as members of the cadre for life, and woe betide anyone who refused to follow the will of the junta?

For Eddington, citizens clearly were pawns. When Sisko threatened them with immediate orbital bombardment, Eddington's response was "Ha, I dare you - I won't even tell them you said so!"...

But that was strategic abuse. We saw no signs of tactical-level rifle-butt action, coercion, threatening of next-of-kin or the like. And why should the Maquis have bothered? They had enough trouble arming their fighters as is - and the noncombatant colonists would be useful weapons unto themselves even (and especially) unarmed, serving as both civilian shields and a logistical burden in "For the Uniform".

In any case, it would have definitely helped if most of the Maquis "in action" that we saw, hadn't been the ones led by such an insufferable jackass like Eddington. If every Maquis ep on DS9 had featured Chakotay's people, the Maquis would have probably come off as much more sympathetic.

I guess the "surgical strike" folks like Chakotay's posse simply made much less of a media impact, despite doing their bid for the cause...

Actually, a group of Maquis coming forward and claiming (perhaps dishonestly) to disagree with Eddington's choices and want something done about the situation could have made for a compelling two-parter, at least.

Much agreed. But we might consider that the Maquis really weren't Sisko's problem: he lived quite some distance away from the DMZ, had bigger fish to fry, and might even have been actively avoided by the Maquis, who had little or no inherent interest in Bajor or the wormhole.

The "peaceful" Maquis, not wanting to antagonize the UFP but not being particularly re-illusioned by them, either, would simply want to keep their distance from anything relating to Starfleet; the actual UFP-minded collaborators among them would find so little local support that they would simply drop their Maquis badges in disgust and sail back to UFP proper without bothering Sisko with it.

Sisko did take active involvement in matters that weren't part of his job (say, Gamma quadrant exploration), so a storyline where he was told to exploit "dissident Maquis" in anti-Maquis ops could have been nice, getting him involved in interesting moral and military conflicts. Perhaps a romantic connection, too, now that they had wasted the Cal Hudson camaraderie angle.

Timo Saloniemi
 
By "this", do you mean my original question?

Was Chakotay from Dorvan 5? Or was that just something from Trek Lit. and not in actual canon?
According to the book "Pathways", written by Jeri Taylor, Chakotay's people lived on a planed called Trebus and were annihilated by the Cardassians.

I must admit that I find it a bit strange that two planets in the DMZ had inhabitants which were Native Americans. Too much of a coincident.

Until I read "Pathways" some time after watching Voyager's season 3, I always assumed that Chakotay's home planet was Dorvan V and that his parents and relatives had been murdered by the Cardassians.

As for the whole treaty with the Cardassians and the creation of the DMZ, I think it was bad politics from the Federation. Just like when England and France gave Nazi Germany a piece of Czechoslovakia to achieve "peace in our time". One year later WWII started.

Or when the Western Allies sold out Eastern Europe to the Soviets after WWII. :thumbdown:
 
The Maquis had an alliance with a great power the Klingons who saw fit to provide them with some serious kit - the cloaking devices. This maybe the thinking behind their dreams for a Maquis state. The Klingons might give an unofficial signal to their allies, that they would support a rump state post-invasion so they could keep the Cardassians permanently in check. It's not a big leap to think the Klingons might respect these humans or ex-Feds for their fight in contrast to the Federation proper who sat on their hands whilst Klingon warriors fell ostensibly to protect them according to the official Klingon view.

I'm not saying that's realistic or would've occurred but that might be what the Maquis where thinking. I would say that as the Klingon Federation War dragged on and involved more and more the deaths of ordinary Federation civilians then any kind of link up with the Maquis would probably fall apart from the Maquis side.

It's unclear how centralised they are. I like Eddington as this flamboyant robin hood type although there's always this thing with such types that they live hard and die fast sometimes taking alot of people with them.
 
I must admit that I find it a bit strange that two planets in the DMZ had inhabitants which were Native Americans.

I could well see how this sort of thing would happen: a UFP population group with a bee in their collective bonnet about "oppressive central government" charters a ship to start anew on a distant planet. They settle, and find out that even the government required to run the colony is too oppressive for their tastes - so two splinter groups charter their own ships and settle two new worlds. And it goes on and on until the splinters are too small to afford a ship. :devil:

As for the whole treaty with the Cardassians and the creation of the DMZ, I think it was bad politics from the Federation. Just like when England and France gave Nazi Germany a piece of Czechoslovakia to achieve "peace in our time". One year later WWII started.

Europe is finite. Space is infinite. Ceding territory to others is a valid policy in the latter case, I guess.

But it's not really a case of "ceding", but of "managing expansion". When everybody is expanding, war is inevitable. Holding onto one's frontier colonies is expanding. Giving them up is managing expansion in the only way that could even theoretically avoid war.

The Maquis had an alliance with a great power the Klingons who saw fit to provide them with some serious kit - the cloaking devices.

One wonders how long this alliance of sorts had been going on. In "Shakaar", Kira and her fellow renegades had access to Klingon infantry weaponry, and their cache probably dated back to the Occupation... Klingons might donate military hardware left and right in penny packets just to keep prospective future allies amenable to ideas, even when no grand political designs currently existed.

Then again, Klingon hardware might just circulate on its own, just like Soviet stuff does. Heck, even the Feds might be making bootlegs for their shadier deals - in "Too Short a Season", Jameison apparently sold Karnas and his enemies Klingon rifle butts (power packs?) with humbler "business ends" attached...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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