The Maquis - where do you stand?

[sonak]

ProtoAvatar-

Well, they were more than just common criminals, they were also conducting a war against the Federation and the Cardassians-in war, soldiers in a battle don't usually get a criminal trial.


I see the problem with these arguments, and I think it might be partially the writers' fault. It was supposed to be the Maquis KNOWINGLY giving up Federation citizenship when they didn't leave those colonies that were changing hands due to the treaty.

I think later retconning/poor continuity made it seem like they were still UFP citizens.

Which is asinine, and thus creates the confusion about the UFP "betraying" their citizens. The writers wanted better drama by having the Maquis be UFP rebels, but realistically, they would've stopped being citizens and the Federation would've had "no dog in the fight" between the Cardassians and the Maquis.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

sonak

THE COLONISTS
The maquis were only a minority of the DMZ federation colonists. Most were men, women and children who were just trying to make a life.

And all remained federation citizens until they were massacred.

As I already said, the maquis were hunted because they were breaking the federation-cardassian treaty, a treaty only federation citizens are bound to.
Further confirmation of their citizenship exists in almost avery episode in which they were featured.

The colonists (and maquis) were INTENDED to be and remain federation citizens until the end - far from the "Maquis KNOWINGLY giving up Federation citizenship".

It should be noted that each time the maquis attacked federation instalations, it was in self-defense. At most, they initiated theft on starfleet facitlities - far from 'conducting war on the federation'.

THE FEDERATION
What was the federation's behaviour towards its citizens?

It sold them out because it was convenient - not necessary.

When cardassian began bullying the colonists, the federation began to hunt down the maquis, which were fighting for the colonists. Note that there was no mention - ever - of the federation so much as sneezing in the direction of the cardassian terrorists who were attacking/killing its citizens.

By the end, the federation's behaviour became ridiculously opressive: Sisko was playing judge, jury and executioner, commiting multiple murders, was poisoning federation colonies filled with civilians - HIS PEOPLE, whom he was sworn to protect. All of this with impunity, with no consequence whatsoever from federation authorities.

And, in the final act of betrayal, the federation sat by and watched HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of men, women, children - not just the maquis, but ALL the colonists, federation citizens - massacred.

The federation continuously betrayed the DMZ colonists. Its betrayal reached staggering proportions; effectively the federation became a tyranny, and the colonists, disposable trash, to be used and discarded at its convenience - because thay dared imagine they are free and have the right to say 'no' to big brother.

With such an antecedent, when it's time for the federation to put facts behind its 'freedom' and 'rights' rhetoric, every federation citizen - without exception - is justified to expect to be used as cannon fodder if he doesn't slavishly obey the central government.

 

[sonak]

Even if you're right about the citizenship, they were still legally under Cardassian jurisdiction. Considering the record of Cardassian treatment of non-Cardassians under occupation, I can't see why most colonists would have wanted to stay knowing likely conditions ahead. But you appear to be right about Cardassian mistreatment touching off resistance, in which case the UFP should have perhaps intervened on the colonists' side, rather than helping the Cardassians hunt them down. So I stand corrected.

 

[neozeks]

ProtoAvatar, you're dramatically oversimplyfing a very complex situation, with plenty of blame to go on all sides.

The citizenship thing - it's obvious the writers were inconsistent with this. We KNOW some of them gave up their citizenship - the Indians of Dorvan V did, and we saw at least one of them among the Maquis. Some of the Maquis were Federation citizens, some weren't. Remember, the DMZ had two sides, a Federation one and a Cardassian one, with the UFP-CU border going in the middle, with colonies settled by people from the Federation on both sides. Or some of the colonists that decided to stay behind managed to hold on to their citizenship.

But the Federation didn't hunt them beacuse they were citizens - it hunted them because their actions directly affected the security of the Federation. In regards to that, it's irrelevant whether they are citizens or not.

As for what i tried to say in a previous post, I found that my position has been voiced by, of all the people, Quark:

SAKONNA
I find this very confusing.

QUARK
Then I'll make it so simple that
even a Vulcan can understand. The
Central Command has been caught red-
handed smuggling weapons to their
settlers. So from now on, every
ship approaching the Demilitarized
Zone will be searched. Without the
support of the Central Command, the
Cardassian settlers won't be so eager
to fight.

SAKONNA
You forget the weapons they already
have.

QUARK
They have weapons... you have
weapons... everyone has weapons.
But right now, no one has a clear
advantage. So the price of peace is
at an all-time low. This is the
perfect time to sit down and hammer
out an agreement. Don't you get
it... attacking the Cardassians now
will only escalate the conflict and
make peace more expensive in the
long run. Now I ask you, is that
logical?

What could have the Federation done? It couldn't have entered the DMZ with it's ships - that would start a war. A war from I have no doubt the colonists themselves would suffer most. It tried instituting a blockade to prevent the smuggling of weapons - but the weapons were already in (and some managed to pass through the blockade). Pressure on the Cardassians to reach a political solution (treaty revision) was the only answer. As Sisko said to Eddington - what these people needed was a negotiated peace, not a military victory. Agressive Maquis activity made a peaceful solution harder, not easier to reach.

One more thing. I'm not trying to justify the Cardassians here but 'naked agression' is also oversimplyfing things. It is established the planets in question were 'hotly disputed' before the colonists settled them. And the peace talks lasted for YEARS. I'd say the Federation did try every other avenue before it decided to trade colonies.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

My opinion is closest to the "I dislike them" option.

I think that, while there may have been some situations where the Maquis were justified, overall I would disagree with what they did.

Plus, the way I see it, the Federation had just recently ended a long border/cold war with the Cardassians. I refuse to believe that the Federation considered it as anything other than a way to get some breathing room, especially considering the person who negotiated it (Admiral Alynna Nechayev, definitely no shrinking violet).

Plus, as Surak said in his Analects: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." The colonists there, on both sides, had the option to move elsewhere. (Also, let's not forget that the Cardassians exchanged systems as well. It was give-and-take).

And, really, let's be serious. Federation citizens decide to colonize planets right by the Cardassians, a people who are known to be somewhat xenophobic, terrotorial, and paranoid (much like the Romulans). The Maquis would later use the fact that they colonized planets so close to their advantage by emphasizing how harassed and victimized they were.

So, that's my feelings about this.

 

[T'Girl]

A forest fire, ProtoAvatar it's advancing upon your house, your property, your community. The government tries to defeat it, but try as hard as they could, they in fact couldn't. The government advises you to leave and moves their efforts elsewhere. So what now? you have four choices, free will, you and your neighbors can;
1) Fight the fire yourselves. 2) Leave. 3) Die 4) Complain.

All treaty did ProtoAvatar was put down on paper a fact that which already existed in reality. The Federation was already not in control of those worlds. Certainly not complete control, yes the colonists were still living on the surface, but prior to the time the treaty was sign they were no longer living on the surface of a Federation world. Both the Federation and the Union claimed the same worlds. After years of battle the Union had the better claim. The treaty was a acknowledgment of their claims superiority. In other areas the Federation had the stronger claim and so those contested worlds were acknowledged by treat to be Federation worlds, however the Federation was already in control of those worlds prior to the treaty. the treaty never "gave away" anything.

EDDINGTON: Look out there. Those people, They were colonists on Salva Two. They had farms, and shops, and homes, and schools, and then one day the Federation signed a treaty and handed their world over to the Cardassians. Just like that. They made these people refugees overnight.
SISKO: It's not that simple and you know it. These people don't have to live here like this. We've offered them resettlement.

Instead the colonists choose resettlement with the Maquis, Choose, free choice, free will. The Federation would have relocated them, as a group if they wanted, on a planet deeper inside the Federation. Instead the Maquis relocated them to caves and onto the surface of planets that the Maquis couldn't possibly defend.

Let's be completely honest. Neither the Federation nor the Maquis were ever going to put those colonists back in their original homes under Federation jurisdiction.. At least the Federation wasn't blowing sunshine up their asses. The Maquis was lying to the colonists. Outright.

As to whether of not the Maquis are still Federation citizens, I think that they are a mixed group. If the Federation/Starfleet apprehends a a non-Starfleet Federation citizen (alive) then it would be a case like Tom Paris, trial and incarceration. Eddington fate would be similar, with a different trial and detention facility. If a member of the Maquis resists apprehension (including simply running away) Starfleet could use force or deadly force, if the Maquis employed armed resistance (and they had in the past), Starfleet would use deadly force, nor would Starfleet have to wait for the Maquis to "Fire First."

Actual the Maquis being Federation citizens makes it legally easier for Starfleet to use force, at least in view of modern day real world international laws. If the US Coast Guard orders a US flagged ship to "heave too" and it doesn't, the US Coast Guard can open fire, and they have. Not all of the Maquis actions take place in Cardassian space, the Maquis mere presence in Federation space makes Starfleet's legal position even clearer still.

Private citizens have banded together and formed a armed group which they are using to force a political change. In the 21st century there is a word for that . . .

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The maquis were only a minority of the DMZ federation colonists.

How do you know that?

Indeed, it brings to mind an interesting point. There may have been colonists who, although disagreeing with the terms of the peace treaty, remained loyal to the Federation and refused to take up arms against it. What might the Maquis' attitude towards them have been? Could people have been 'conscripted' into the Maquis against their will? Or, if even that didn't work, expelled from the colonies, attacked or even killed - as, shall we say, 'counterrevolutionaries'? It's certainly possible.

Terrorist movements like the Maquis, while concentrating most of their anger (hate) against the other side, are not much more accommodating to those of their *own* side whom they perceive as turning traitor to the 'revolution'. Look at how Chakotay reacted when he learned that Tuvok was a Federation operative...

 

[DonIago]

I kind of thought Chakotay took it more as a personal betrayal than as a betrayal of the Maquis, to be fair.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I suppose you're right.

Tuvok's lucky it was Chakotay and not Eddington... Eddington was such a jackass he might have killed Tuvok outright.

 

[DonIago]

(snort) That would have been really funny, actually. Sounds like something that would happen in a Joss Whedon series.

...that might have spiced up the Seska arc...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

How do we even know what Cardassian borders were at the time of settlement, how close they actually were? You act like the colonists provoked a war on purpose when in fact what you're doing is blaming the victim, and frankly, the colonists were double-victimized: once by their own government and once by the Cardassians. And you wonder why they have no trust left!

And again, how do we know the Cardassians have any kind of legitimate claim? If the Federation claimed it first and got there first, it's theirs. Period. Cardassian coveting doesn't matter a whit if the Federation's claim is legit. (Totally unintentional but awesome rhyme.) And if they give up territory as prizes to every power that points a phaser in their direction, why would anyone have any reason to trust them?

 

[DonIago]

I think all this discussion is proving is that we have way too little information to be judging the situation from either a moral or legal standpoint.

 

[T'Girl]

How do we even know what Cardassian borders were at the time of settlement

Well that the problem isn't it? The Union's border was inside Federation space and the Federation's border was inside the Union's space. In between their two territories overlapped, each government saw their own claim as the legitimate one, and so they fought for years. The section that the Union won became theirs by treaty, the section that the Federation won became theirs by treaty.

Debatable if the war had simply continued the Federation might have eventually "conquered" the entire overlapping area and then the colonists would have been fine.

If the Federation claimed it first and got there first, it's theirs. Period.

My family was stationed in Japan when I was a child, from talking to them, the Ryukyuans (indigenous Okinawan's) would very much like the Japanese (and Americans) to leave the island of Okinawa, the Americans are slowly doing just that. The Japanese keep building houses. Point is, simply being first on the scene doesn't make something yours.

The Federation lost some of it's claimed territory because it could not continuously hang on to all of it.

The Federation never wanted to conquer the entire Union, anymore than the Union wanted (realistically) to conquer the entire Federation. The whole war was about a strip of territory that both wished to expand into.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hence why I said if the Federation CLAIMED it first, as well as being first on the scene. Though frankly, if they were there first and the territory was uninhabited and uncontrolled by any power, that would be a more tenuous claim but still sufficient.

If the Cardassians declared their border in that area BEFORE the Federation ever stated it was going that far, then yes, the Federation would be in violation of Cardassian territory. But if the Federation spoke up first, and the Cardassians just decided later on that they wanted those worlds--then too bad on the Cardassians...they should not have any right or any expectation to those worlds.

I say that as someone who likes the Cardassians more than the Federation, but likes the rule of law best. And in this case, I see both powers as dreadfully in the wrong.

 

[neozeks]

And again, how do we know the Cardassians have any kind of legitimate claim?

We don't. I'm not saying they have. Just that the colonists knew it was disputed, knew the risk, knew what they were going into when they decided to settle. In fact, Picard says they were specifically asked not to settle there. (I'm talking about Dorvan V here, but I'd say it's likely the situation is the same with the other colonies) But in the end, I agree with DonIago.

 

[T'Girl]

Hence why I said if the Federation CLAIMED it first

But is that enough? One of the reasons the Union was able to eventual establish sovereignty over the former Federation colonies was because it was able to militarily push the Federation out of the space those colonies were located in. The Union might actual have gotten there first, irrelevant, that isn't what got them the planets in question.

the rule of law

But who's law? If you and I are in dispute over a piece of land, we both can go to a judge with our respective piles of paper and get a binding legal judgment. The Union and the Federation lacked this option.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And again, how do we know the Cardassians have any kind of legitimate claim?

We don't. I'm not saying they have. Just that the colonists knew it was disputed, knew the risk, knew what they were going into when they decided to settle. In fact, Picard says they were specifically asked not to settle there. (I'm talking about Dorvan V here, but I'd say it's likely the situation is the same with the other colonies) But in the end, I agree with DonIago.

Even if it's "disputed," if the Federation has the legitimate claim and the Cardassian claim is NOT legitimate, then the Cardassians can shout all day, but the colonists had absolutely every right to settle there and should have been able to expect defense. "Risks" should NOT have included abandonment and treachery by their own people.

As far as I'm concerned, just because the Cardassians later bullied the Federation does not give them a legitimate claim. Might should not have equaled right--the Federation should never have kowtowed to an illegitimate demand on the Cardassians' part.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Well, it doesn't make them into "second-class citizens," it makes them into folks who are disobeying the law.

To paraphrase many of the quotes I cited some posts back: "An unjust law is NO law". The Federation had no right to take those colonist's homes from them just to placate a foreign power that started a war with them.

Once the Federation made that legal agreement, it became law of that sector that those planets were Cardassian after a certain period of adjustment.

Only under the theory that Might makes Right.

The Maquis decided to carry out an ILLEGAL WAR AGAINST THE RIGHTFUL GOVERNMENT OF THOSE COLONIES!!!

The right of self-defense is a sovereign right of ALL people.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I think the issue is that no one knows which claim was legitimate. That's why the DMZ was created, to establish firm boundaries, among other things.

And, if someone settles in a dangerous area despite warning, and even give up citizenship to stay there...well, they almost deserve what's coming to them.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

As Sisko said to Eddington - what these people needed was a negotiated peace, not a military victory. Agressive Maquis activity made a peaceful solution harder, not easier to reach.

Ironic he should feel that way, since HE once noted: It's easy to be a Saint in Paradise.

It's easy for him to talk about negotation, when he didn't have to wonder if he was going to be poisoned by his morning raktajino or randomly shot down by infiltrators disguised as monks.