The Maquis Captain: Thomas Riker

[Paradise City]

Thanks. I didn't remember why Kurn was ousted from the Council. But in light of that, and just the sense I have of Kurn generally I can't see him trying to ingratiate himself with the Council or spiting Worf.

Not saying Klingons weren't in the Maquis. I mean Torres was in it. But a person of Kurn's position, from what we saw of him, it just doesn't feel to me like something he would do. Granted after his fall from grace he might do something out of 'character' but I don't see him taking on that fight per se. I think there would have to be more added to explain why he's in the Maquis.

And I don't see him getting all wrapped up in Maquis ideology or their cause. Keep Chakotay, Tom Riker, or Ro who were all more passionate Maquis. Though Tom might have been doing it for less than noble reasons.

Kurn's passion is battle and Maquis is a frontier paramilitary organisation who have to think on their feet and who rough it out. He'd more find his home there, than say, as XO on the Enterprise with that pleasure liner in space vibe. He'd get on with people in the Maquis far more, having shared battle experiences with them and he has a more jovial side to him, which Worf usually lacks. And alot of Maquis aren't Maquis ideologues, they are there for their own reasons. With Kurn, he need only win the confidence of a Klingon commander to be adopted into his family alá Worf and as a Klingon and Maquis interests broadly align, he'd have some opportunity for this to happen.

The guy who washed up in DS9 was a basically at rock bottom and in limbo. Sans the ritual killing, the memory wiping stuff, the Maquis would be the next best outlet for him if he couldn't ply his trade in the Empire.

 

[DarKush]

If Kurn was ousted from the Council for not supporting going to war with Cardassia why would he then join the Maquis that was at war with the Cardassians?

I'm not saying what you're proposing would be an impossibility. The writers could doubtlessly come up with many scenarios to put him there. But from what I saw of Kurn I don't see him joining the Maquis. Sure he likes to fight, but I also think he likes the power and position of his House, he wanted glory for his family name. I don't see how he gets that fighting for the Maquis. Also what Klingon House would be fighting the Maquis, without sanction-tacit or official- from the High Council (for him to be adopted into)? And to my knowledge we didn't see that. And if this House did have Gowron's approval, would they accept Kurn, who was on Gowron's crap list?

It would make sense that the Klingons and Maquis did work together. I even started writing a fanfic story years ago with that alliance, but we didn't see that onscreen.

Sure Kurn was at a low point at DS9, but still it seemed to me he was concerned about uniquely, internal Klingon concerns, regaining honor perhaps in Klingon society as opposed to just spoiling for any fight.

 

[Paradise City]

The Klingons and the Maquis did work together. The Klingons furnished for the Maquis numerous cloaking devices as Martok tells us when warning Sisko that Eddington's alleged doomsday missile is most probably cloaked. So, yes, there was active cooperation between the two. Kurn objected to the Cardassian invasion but could subsequently changed his mind given his realisation of the full ramifications of his decision. That can plausibly happen.

Before the Dominion struck in a three day blitz that took out the Maquis, Eddington had become quite a legend in filling the vacuum that the weakened Cardassians had left. It's not hard to imagine Kurn performing similar feats given his expertise.

Kurn's house is gone but a feasible route back is to do as Worf did; get adopted by a Klingon who knows of Kurn, perhaps sympathised with him in his fall and admired his feats in battle. Kurn gets his honour back. That's what matters to the guy more than power.

The writers had Dukat plodding along in some dilapidated freighter and then had him running Cardassia a few episodes later. Kurn, at a loose end, joining the Maquis is less of a writing leap than that.

 

[DarKush]

The Klingons and the Maquis did work together. The Klingons furnished for the Maquis numerous cloaking devices as Martok tells us when warning Sisko that Eddington's alleged doomsday missile is most probably cloaked. So, yes, there was active cooperation between the two. Kurn objected to the Cardassian invasion but could subsequently changed his mind given his realisation of the full ramifications of his decision. That can plausibly happen.
Before the Dominion struck in a three day blitz that took out the Maquis, Eddington had become quite a legend in filling the vacuum that the weakened Cardassians had left. It's not hard to imagine Kurn performing similar feats given his expertise.

Kurn's house is gone but a feasible route back is to do as Worf did; get adopted by a Klingon who knows of Kurn, perhaps sympathised with him in his fall and admired his feats in battle. Kurn gets his honour back. That's what matters to the guy more than power.

The writers had Dukat plodding along in some dilapidated freighter and then had him running Cardassia a few episodes later. Kurn, at a loose end, joining the Maquis is less of a writing leap than that.

Thanks for letting me know about the Klingon-Maquis alliance. I don't even remember that. Sure the writers could come up with something to put Kurn in the Maquis fight, I just don't see that happening from what we saw of the character. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen if the writers came up with something. Hopefully it would have been something good.
But from what I saw of Kurn I don't see him seeing the Maquis fight as his fight. And yes he cared about personal honor, but he also cared about restoring his house, and having a powerful house would be important to him. Perhaps he might equate power with virtue or honor, but I'm reaching there with that one. I do agree he would care more about honor than power, but then again, I can't say political calculation would be completely tossed out. I did a check of Memory Beta and at one point Kurn was plotting a coup to prevent Gowron or the House of Duras from gaining power and Worf did use Kurn's forces as a bargaining chip with Gowron during the Civil War, with Kurn's consent-forced, reluctant, or otherwise. And I still believe that Kurn would care more about actions that restore his house and his honor within the Empire. And maybe even return to a position on the High Council. Why would the Klingons care about the actions, no matter how heroic, of the Maquis? How does that get him back what he lost?

That being said, once I took a look at Memory Beta to reacquaint myself with Kurn I had forgotten that he took a position with the Bajoran Militia. That doesn't really strike me as something he would do, however he was pretty much at wit's end at that point. So for him to go Maquis I could see the writer's putting him in a place where he had fallen so deeply and all he cared about was fighting. It didn't really matter who. Honor had been denied him and likely would never be restored. If they did that, it could even set up a redemption arc for him that DS9 cheated him out of.

But to the point of Kurn being on Voyager, I think his presence might have taken away from him ultimately. I mean I don't to see him assimilating into the crew. Part of what made him unique on TNG was that he didn't assimilate, or did so in a backhanded manner-though admittedly much of his consternation or jibes were designed to test Worf. Having him on Voyager, for seven years, I think his character would've been whittled away. I like the idea of having a Maquis counterpoint (like Chakotay or I imagine Ro, Tom Riker, or Eddington) would could be opposed based on ideological grounds. Granted Kurn could also have an ideological beef with the Federation, but it just seems like adding extra baggage to a character already laden with a potentially rich backstory.

 

[Paradise City]

The Klingons and the Maquis did work together. The Klingons furnished for the Maquis numerous cloaking devices as Martok tells us when warning Sisko that Eddington's alleged doomsday missile is most probably cloaked. So, yes, there was active cooperation between the two. Kurn objected to the Cardassian invasion but could subsequently changed his mind given his realisation of the full ramifications of his decision. That can plausibly happen.
Before the Dominion struck in a three day blitz that took out the Maquis, Eddington had become quite a legend in filling the vacuum that the weakened Cardassians had left. It's not hard to imagine Kurn performing similar feats given his expertise.

Kurn's house is gone but a feasible route back is to do as Worf did; get adopted by a Klingon who knows of Kurn, perhaps sympathised with him in his fall and admired his feats in battle. Kurn gets his honour back. That's what matters to the guy more than power.

The writers had Dukat plodding along in some dilapidated freighter and then had him running Cardassia a few episodes later. Kurn, at a loose end, joining the Maquis is less of a writing leap than that.

Thanks for letting me know about the Klingon-Maquis alliance. I don't even remember that. Sure the writers could come up with something to put Kurn in the Maquis fight, I just don't see that happening from what we saw of the character. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen if the writers came up with something. Hopefully it would have been something good.
But from what I saw of Kurn I don't see him seeing the Maquis fight as his fight. And yes he cared about personal honor, but he also cared about restoring his house, and having a powerful house would be important to him. Perhaps he might equate power with virtue or honor, but I'm reaching there with that one. I do agree he would care more about honor than power, but then again, I can't say political calculation would be completely tossed out. I did a check of Memory Beta and at one point Kurn was plotting a coup to prevent Gowron or the House of Duras from gaining power and Worf did use Kurn's forces as a bargaining chip with Gowron during the Civil War, with Kurn's consent-forced, reluctant, or otherwise. And I still believe that Kurn would care more about actions that restore his house and his honor within the Empire. And maybe even return to a position on the High Council. Why would the Klingons care about the actions, no matter how heroic, of the Maquis? How does that get him back what he lost?

That being said, once I took a look at Memory Beta to reacquaint myself with Kurn I had forgotten that he took a position with the Bajoran Militia. That doesn't really strike me as something he would do, however he was pretty much at wit's end at that point. So for him to go Maquis I could see the writer's putting him in a place where he had fallen so deeply and all he cared about was fighting. It didn't really matter who. Honor had been denied him and likely would never be restored. If they did that, it could even set up a redemption arc for him that DS9 cheated him out of.

But to the point of Kurn being on Voyager, I think his presence might have taken away from him ultimately. I mean I don't to see him assimilating into the crew. Part of what made him unique on TNG was that he didn't assimilate, or did so in a backhanded manner-though admittedly much of his consternation or jibes were designed to test Worf. Having him on Voyager, for seven years, I think his character would've been whittled away. I like the idea of having a Maquis counterpoint (like Chakotay or I imagine Ro, Tom Riker, or Eddington) would could be opposed based on ideological grounds. Granted Kurn could also have an ideological beef with the Federation, but it just seems like adding extra baggage to a character already laden with a potentially rich backstory.

Kurn isn't a guy with a lust for power. It's Worf that has the machiavellian streak. And symbolic gestures are important to the Klingons. Remember the Enterprise C.

He would never properly assimilate in Voyager. But that's not a bad thing. In fact, he could be a catalyst to keep the Maquis apart and keep the Starfleet versus Maquis simmering over. Kurn would enjoy a bond with the Maquis forged through battle in an inversion of the confidence the Klingon's had with Riker in A Matter of Honour episode when Riker visited the BOP. A relationship would have to be developed throughout the run with the Starfleet crew.

 

[DarKush]

I never said Kurn had a lust for power, but I don't think he had an aversion to power either. He missed the power and prestige Gowron stripped from him. I also don't see Worf having a Machiavellian streak per se. He saw a good leverage point to use on Gowron and he used it. But for most of Trek Worf was fairly guileless. Heck he even turned down his rightful place as ruler of the High Council after killing Gowron.

Sure the things you are describing might have happened with Kurn on Voyager, but it seemed to me that TPTB were adamant about curbing conflict and making a relatively happy crew. That meant they would've written Kurn to fit in or got rid of him. I mean the ingredients to keep the conflict long running or simmering were there without Kurn or Tom Riker (my choice), but TPTB largely downplayed or suppressed them. Every now and then they might reemerge but for the most part they were subsumed. It took the outsider Seven of Nine to add conflict and eventually her quest became about reconnecting to her humanity, i.e. fitting in.

 

[Silvercrest]

Commander Kurn and a Klingon Bop

I'm trying to picture the Klingon Bop. What kind of music would you need?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I think Lieutenant Commander Calvin Hudson from DS9's "The Maquis" two-parter would've been interesting. As he and his motivations for joining are already established, and he definitely didn't feel like someone who'd just become Janeway's doormat.

 

[DarKush]

I hadn't thought of Hudson before. Having him could've been interesting. He might have been a stronger counterpoint to Janeway than Chakotay turned out to be.

 

[jaime]

Just think...the whole endgame could play out differently when they use quantum entanglement to switch the two 'brothers' to tell starfleet where voyager is.
Then you have 'get me to the church on time' where they have to switch them back before Wills wedding, and you end up with the whole voyager crew present in nemesis, not just seven of nine like was mooted, Data gets to sing with the fabulous riker brother rythm and blues band, featuring the delaney sisters cover of mister sandman, and the unique stylings of harry Kim on....whatever it was.
Neelix stays on, because what's an asteroid of your own people when there's a wedding to cater for, and as a result of food poisoning and the fact that voyagers crew is so used to anomalies by now, Shinzon doesn't catch the enterprise in a nebula everyone should have seen coming, nemesis turns into a romantic comedy, makes a mint at the box office just like that episode....star trek friends: the one with the whales in, and to this day we are watching the greatest ensemble cast ever put together. All 40 odd of them.

 

[Anwar]

They should have had there be several Alpha Quadrant species being held on Ocampa with their ships being on the Array, then when it's destroyed some escape and others have to stay on Voyager because their ships were either too damaged or they felt it was safer to stay together.

That way there's more meaning to their conflicts with one another (since it's several factions forced to work together, not just Feds and Maquis) and we'd have more room for recurring characters and/or villains.

 

[Paradise City]

Ishara Yar? Now there's a left field suggestion. Get Yar's duplicitous sister on board and get a few TNG talking points going.

Or forget the Maquis and replace it with a Romulan scout carrying the disgraced Sela.

 

[Drone]

Sure the things you are describing might have happened with Kurn on Voyager, but it seemed to me that TPTB were adamant about curbing conflict and making a relatively happy crew. That meant they would've written Kurn to fit in or got rid of him. I mean the ingredients to keep the conflict long running or simmering were there without Kurn or Tom Riker (my choice), but TPTB largely downplayed or suppressed them. Every now and then they might reemerge but for the most part they were subsumed. It took the outsider Seven of Nine to add conflict and eventually her quest became about reconnecting to her humanity, i.e. fitting in.

The whole discussion of which potential Maquis might have added to the conflict, tension, dramatic intensity, etc. seems superfluous as the network effectively scotched this as a continuing thread, regardless what the show runners had considered, if my understanding is accurate. So, while an interesting speculation on who might have been more compelling than who was actually there, it was never going to happen anyway. So.....

 

[WoTe]

It would have been neat to see a Riker as Star Trek captain, especially the one that deserted the service to begin with. Would have been 100x more interesting than Chakotay, that's for sure. Forget Janeway. This should have been the premise. Rogue Captain without much crew and dead ship takes control of a wayward Star Fleet ship without much bridge crew left (thanks to idealistic but misguided captain).

Yeah, I'd have watched it. Does he play jazz on the bridge?

The Capt Riker vs Capt Riker ending in S7 would have practically wrote itself.

 

[WoTe]

The concept of Thomas Riker as a crewman in Voyager is artistically meritorious. I'm confident that he and Seven of Nine would've had the potential to become one of Star Trek's greatest romances. However, I wouldn't have wanted him to replace Chakotay, as I'm a great fan of both characters ...

Chakotay could have played Voyager's wooden plank that Seska and Suder would have to eventually walk. Would have given Beltran greater artistic range and more gravitas than 1st officer role.

 

[WoTe]

Riker is too prominent. It's a pity Michelle Forbes wasn't game but her as Maquis leader would've been excellent. Talk about running with two strong women as categorical leaders whilst injecting a bit of grit into proceedings.

If Tom Riker is Captain, it would have been interesting to see her as XO if she never left Star Fleet.

Quite the reversal to get the show going.

 

[Anwar]

Sure the things you are describing might have happened with Kurn on Voyager, but it seemed to me that TPTB were adamant about curbing conflict and making a relatively happy crew. That meant they would've written Kurn to fit in or got rid of him. I mean the ingredients to keep the conflict long running or simmering were there without Kurn or Tom Riker (my choice), but TPTB largely downplayed or suppressed them. Every now and then they might reemerge but for the most part they were subsumed. It took the outsider Seven of Nine to add conflict and eventually her quest became about reconnecting to her humanity, i.e. fitting in.

The whole discussion of which potential Maquis might have added to the conflict, tension, dramatic intensity, etc. seems superfluous as the network effectively scotched this as a continuing thread, regardless what the show runners had considered, if my understanding is accurate. So, while an interesting speculation on who might have been more compelling than who was actually there, it was never going to happen anyway. So.....

The conflict with the Maquis wouldn't have lasted more than a season anyways, since they weren't even real enemies with the Feds. Their only point of contention was a political dispute 75 years away.

 

[Paradise City]

Sure the things you are describing might have happened with Kurn on Voyager, but it seemed to me that TPTB were adamant about curbing conflict and making a relatively happy crew. That meant they would've written Kurn to fit in or got rid of him. I mean the ingredients to keep the conflict long running or simmering were there without Kurn or Tom Riker (my choice), but TPTB largely downplayed or suppressed them. Every now and then they might reemerge but for the most part they were subsumed. It took the outsider Seven of Nine to add conflict and eventually her quest became about reconnecting to her humanity, i.e. fitting in.

The whole discussion of which potential Maquis might have added to the conflict, tension, dramatic intensity, etc. seems superfluous as the network effectively scotched this as a continuing thread, regardless what the show runners had considered, if my understanding is accurate. So, while an interesting speculation on who might have been more compelling than who was actually there, it was never going to happen anyway. So.....

The conflict with the Maquis wouldn't have lasted more than a season anyways, since they weren't even real enemies with the Feds. Their only point of contention was a political dispute 75 years away.

It depends. If they are frontier non-Starfleet colonialists knocked about by decades of war; they might not be ever ripe to fit in with Starfleet standards and discipline. Many border colonies might plausibly have a rough and ready quality with ports full of disreputable types. They may harbour some real resentment for Starfleet for not defending them properly from their perspective. Ex-Starfleet types, on the otherhand, will fit back in no problem.

I don't know whether Frakes or the writers would be able to sustain a "Tom Riker" for the duration without eventually lapsing back into being Will Riker. That would be my concern.

 

[Anwar]

It depends. If they are frontier non-Starfleet colonialists knocked about by decades of war; they might not be ever ripe to fit in with Starfleet standards and discipline. Many border colonies might plausibly have a rough and ready quality with ports full of disreputable types. They may harbour some real resentment for Starfleet for not defending them properly from their perspective. Ex-Starfleet types, on the otherhand, will fit back in no problem.

Still, they'd have to get used to working together after a year or so. To hold onto whatever negativity they had (which wasn't even that much) after that would mean they were some seriously unbalanced people.

You know why Lost in Space turned Dr Smith from a cold and super competent master spy into a comedy buffoon? It was because everyone (including his own actor) realized that there was really was no reason for the Robinsons to keep him around if he stayed like that.

Same with the Maquis, the Feds didn't really need them and they outnumbered them/outgunned them. If tensions didn't get resolved after a while you'd be left wondering why the Hell they bothered not ditching them on some random rock.

 

[Paradise City]

It depends. If they are frontier non-Starfleet colonialists knocked about by decades of war; they might not be ever ripe to fit in with Starfleet standards and discipline. Many border colonies might plausibly have a rough and ready quality with ports full of disreputable types. They may harbour some real resentment for Starfleet for not defending them properly from their perspective. Ex-Starfleet types, on the otherhand, will fit back in no problem.

Still, they'd have to get used to working together after a year or so. To hold onto whatever negativity they had (which wasn't even that much) after that would mean they were some seriously unbalanced people.

You know why Lost in Space turned Dr Smith from a cold and super competent master spy into a comedy buffoon? It was because everyone (including his own actor) realized that there was really was no reason for the Robinsons to keep him around if he stayed like that.

Same with the Maquis, the Feds didn't really need them and they outnumbered them/outgunned them. If tensions didn't get resolved after a while you'd be left wondering why the Hell they bothered not ditching them on some random rock.

A serious crisis could be a catalyst for division as much as for unity. Dislocated from their homes and families, they are in a traumatic situation that might reasonably unbalance and unnerve any person. These aren't explorers, they are people attached to their homes and their locality. Janeway sacrificing a way home for the PD might not go down too well with these types. And there could be plenty of material for conflict as Janeway makes the tough decisions or indeed screws up occasionally. BSG reimagined was very good in depicting this kind of stuff. Also the Maquis could outnumber the Starfleet types which would make things very tight and tricky.