"The Making of Star Trek" by Stephen Whitfield & Gene Roddenberry (1968)

[Mysterion]

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established by the Kobayashi Maru at the beginning of Star Trek II. I suppose it could've been the RNZ, but that would've made Klingons hanging around a lot stranger. Or maybe not. The Romulans and Federation are both forbidden from the Neutral Zone, so the Klingons fly through with impunity picking fights.

Or, just spitballing here, the Klingons and the UFP agreed to set-up Neutral Zone of their own after the thing with the Organians. The less contact between the two forces, the less often their ships and weapons get all hot, glowey and unusable. And the whole Romulan Neutral Zone seemed to work for the most part, so it was a workable model to use.

 

[David cgc]

Oh, yeah, I definitely don't have a problem with the now-established retcon that the Klingon Neutral Zone is another name or development of the "disputed areas" mentioned in TOS, but speaking historically in the real-world, I'm saying that it may have been possible that the Klingons having a Neutral Zone wasn't codified until TSFS even though it was pretty much stated in TWOK.

 

[Christopher]

The Klingon Neutral Zone was established by the Kobayashi Maru at the beginning of Star Trek II. I suppose it could've been the RNZ, but that would've made Klingons hanging around a lot stranger. Or maybe not. The Romulans and Federation are both forbidden from the Neutral Zone, so the Klingons fly through with impunity picking fights.

TWOK just calls it "the Neutral Zone," and never specifies whose it is. In fact, it's specifically said to be near Gamma Hydra, and we know from "The Deadly Years" that Gamma Hydra is near the Romulan Neutral Zone, so I've always assumed that the filmmakers meant it to be the Romulan NZ. Klingon ships being there isn't strange, because a) the Klingons and Romulans were allies around that time (at least according to TMoST) and b) it was a simulation anyway.

 

[drt]

TWOK just calls it "the Neutral Zone," and never specifies whose it is. In fact, it's specifically said to be near Gamma Hydra, and we know from "The Deadly Years" that Gamma Hydra is near the Romulan Neutral Zone, so I've always assumed that the filmmakers meant it to be the Romulan NZ. Klingon ships being there isn't strange, because a) the Klingons and Romulans were allies around that time (at least according to TMoST) and b) it was a simulation anyway.

I recall some 80s fanon also hypothesized that having Klingons appearing somewhere one expected Romulans was intended to add to the disorientation of the Kobayashi Maru test.

 

[Christopher]

I recall some 80s fanon also hypothesized that having Klingons appearing somewhere one expected Romulans was intended to add to the disorientation of the Kobayashi Maru test.

I don't know about "fanon," but I seem to recall a novel presenting it that way. However, it doesn't seem to be in the TWOK novelization or The Kobayashi Maru by Julia Ecklar (which does indeed call it "the Klingon Neutral Zone").

 

[Damian]

The switch to Klingons spouting about honour (Valkris, Kruge, Maltz) happened when "Return to Genesis" became "The Search for Spock". A switch of bad guys, from Romulans to Klingons, hence Klingon Neutral Zone and Klingon bird of prey. Probably because it was harder to address in a major motion picture why Saavik, Sarek, T'Lar and the resurrected Spock looked exactly like the Romulans trying to steal the secrets of Genesis.

Yeah, that all makes sense. Plus the filmmakers in TSFS probably wanted to use the more 'formidable' Klingons than the Romulans, and the Klingons were more recognized. And they probably wanted to depict Klingons as an antagonist after they were teased in TMP.

I actually don't have a problem with the evolution of the Klingons in the movies onto TNG. I mean, Kruge in TSFS was certainly ruthless. While some honor was hinted at, he was still extremely dangerous and I would say pretty much in line to how they were portrayed in the original series. In fact I would say Kruge is probably far more dangerous than Kor, Koloth and Kang were.

TNG probably took the line from "Errand of Mercy" from the Organians that one day the Federation and Klingon Empire would be friends. I would think for that to occur the Klingons would need to be adjusted a bit from their original series portrayal. Adding a code of honor would do that. Plus it made them more complicated. Had they just continued unchanged from their description in "The Making of Star Trek" they would probably run the risk of being one dimensional villains. Just the big bad mindlness bullies in the neighborhood. That's not a criticism of the original intent of the Klingons--after all in the original series they were only seen a handful of times. But as they continued to be added to stories there needed to be more development if you wanted to flesh them out.

A lot of the novels went with the idea that as time went on in toward the time of TNG Klingons started to rediscover Kahless, who we find out later embodied the Klingon code of honor we see by the time of TNG (though corrupted at times by their leaders like K'mpec and Gowron). And of course in Enterprise, we see Archer's lawyer bemoan how the Klingons have lost their way (likely to more explicitly portray why Klingons in the original series seemed to lack honor--though Kor and Kang did seem to have a rudimentary sense of honor).

 

[BeatleJWOL]

I love this book. I'd found it originally in a odds-and-ends store in James Dean's hometown (of all places!) on a school field trip. Had it, loved it, apparently mixed it in with a yard sale we had before leaving Indiana. Found a copy again at a used bookstore here in NC and I'm not letting this one get away.

 

[Therin of Andor]

TWOK just calls it "the Neutral Zone," and never specifies whose it is. In fact, it's specifically said to be near Gamma Hydra, and we know from "The Deadly Years" that Gamma Hydra is near the Romulan Neutral Zone...

Yep, and the very first "Starlog" summary of ST II mentioned Romulan Neutral Zone, so I was surprised when the movie itself left it open.

 

[Damian]

Yep, and the very first "Starlog" summary of ST II mentioned Romulan Neutral Zone, so I was surprised when the movie itself left it open.

TWOK just calls it "the Neutral Zone," and never specifies whose it is. In fact, it's specifically said to be near Gamma Hydra, and we know from "The Deadly Years" that Gamma Hydra is near the Romulan Neutral Zone, so I've always assumed that the filmmakers meant it to be the Romulan NZ. Klingon ships being there isn't strange, because a) the Klingons and Romulans were allies around that time (at least according to TMoST) and b) it was a simulation anyway.

Is it also possible it was simply Romulans using Klingon ships, which we know they were doing at the time? I mean there are never any communications or anything to indicate that the people in the ships are actually Klingons.

Or, maybe I'm just overthinking things because it's a simulation and if they wanted to put Klingon ships in Tholian territory for a simulation they could--since it's a test they would want to throw some surprises because you never know what to expect in space.

 

[Leto_II]

Is it also possible it was simply Romulans using Klingon ships, which we know they were doing at the time? I mean there are never any communications or anything to indicate that the people in the ships are actually Klingons.

During the simulation in the movie, it's pretty clear that the battlecruisers are intended to be wholly-Klingon ships, based on the simulator-computer's dialogue ("Klingons on attack course and closing," "Alert -- Klingon torpedoes activated!", etc.). Plus Klingons would likely have very specific, particular behaviors during combat that would distinguish them from Romulan opponents, presumably.

 

[Damian]

During the simulation in the movie, it's pretty clear that the battlecruisers are intended to be wholly-Klingon ships, based on the simulator-computer's dialogue ("Klingons on attack course and closing," "Alert -- Klingon torpedoes activated!", etc.). Plus Klingons would likely have very specific, particular behaviors during combat that would distinguish them from Romulan opponents, presumably.

Yeah, you're probably right. Just a thought that popped in my head.

In universe I'd probably just chalk up the whole scene in universe as a simulation. It might have even been part of the test. You find Klingon ships in an area where there shouldn't be any--how do you handle that?

Real life wise--well, obviously to save money they wanted to reuse the shot from TMP. And they probably used the name Gamma Hydra as an Easter egg for fans.

 

[Christopher]

And they probably used the name Gamma Hydra as an Easter egg for fans.

I don't think Bennett and Meyer were all that concerned with winking to fans, since they weren't fans themselves. We know that they watched the entire series looking for ideas to work into their movie, and we know that Carol Marcus was originally going to be Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years." And "The Deadly Years" features Gamma Hydra as a planet near the Romulan Neutral Zone, and then TWOK has a neutral zone near Gamma Hydra -- it seems like they were just cribbing terminology from that episode.

On the other hand, I just paged through Allan Asherman's making-of book for TWOK, and there's a reprint on p. 49 of a storyboard for the viewscreen graphic in the Kobayashi Maru sequence, and it refers to the big wireframe oval as "KLINGON Neutrality Zone." So at least by the time the FX were storyboarded in March 1982, it was intended to be a Klingon Neutral Zone.

But I do wonder if it was originally going to be the Romulan NZ (hence the Gamma Hydra reference) and got swapped to Klingon because that let them reuse stock TMP footage. After all, Saavik was originally going to be half-Romulan, so that would've made the Romulans relevant.

 

[Damian]

I don't think Bennett and Meyer were all that concerned with winking to fans, since they weren't fans themselves. We know that they watched the entire series looking for ideas to work into their movie, and we know that Carol Marcus was originally going to be Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years." And "The Deadly Years" features Gamma Hydra as a planet near the Romulan Neutral Zone, and then TWOK has a neutral zone near Gamma Hydra -- it seems like they were just cribbing terminology from that episode.

On the other hand, I just paged through Allan Asherman's making-of book for TWOK, and there's a reprint on p. 49 of a storyboard for the viewscreen graphic in the Kobayashi Maru sequence, and it refers to the big wireframe oval as "KLINGON Neutrality Zone." So at least by the time the FX were storyboarded in March 1982, it was intended to be a Klingon Neutral Zone.

But I do wonder if it was originally going to be the Romulan NZ (hence the Gamma Hydra reference) and got swapped to Klingon because that let them reuse stock TMP footage. After all, Saavik was originally going to be half-Romulan, so that would've made the Romulans relevant.

Hmm. Could be. This is the first time I really gave that scene a lot of thought, outside it's impact on the story. In story any continuity issues could be easily written off as 'it's a simulation'. But in the real world I can see what you are saying as leading to the final scene--and of course just the mere cost savings of reusing footage from TMP.

And yeah, it's pretty clear they were Klingon ships. I was just speculating that it could have been Romulans on the ship, but the evidence is pretty clear they are Klingon ships

I still remember seeing that same scene (among others) when I first saw TMP (which was after I had seen TWOK). I remember thinking "wow, that's from TWOK---well in reverse"

 

[DrCorby]

During the simulation in the movie, it's pretty clear that the battlecruisers are intended to be wholly-Klingon ships, based on the simulator-computer's dialogue ("Klingons on attack course and closing," "Alert -- Klingon torpedoes activated!", etc.). Plus Klingons would likely have very specific, particular behaviors during combat that would distinguish them from Romulan opponents, presumably.

Also, after the test was over, Saavik asked Kirk for recommendations. Kirk replied, "Prayer, Mr Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners." So that reinforces your point. Starfleet definitely intended those ships to be manned by Klingons.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If the Federation shares a border with the Romulans, and the Romulans share a border with the Klingons, and the Klingons share a border with the Federation, why can't there be a point or (possibly curved) edge where all three meet? Maybe that was supposed to be near Gamma Hydra.

 

[Daddy Todd]

If the Federation shares a border with the Romulans, and the Romulans share a border with the Klingons, and the Klingons share a border with the Federation, why can't there be a point or (possibly curved) edge where all three meet? Maybe that was supposed to be near Gamma Hydra.

That region was called “the Triangle” in the old FASA roleplaying material. I can’t remember if it was supposed to be in the Gamma Hydra region — and I don’t have the roleplaying supplements any more to check.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That region was called “the Triangle” in the old FASA roleplaying material. I can’t remember if it was supposed to be in the Gamma Hydra region — and I don’t have the roleplaying supplements any more to check.

FASA, around that time, released a "ST III Sourcebook" (just after that movie) and a "Star Trek IV Sourcebook" (ditto). A "ST V Sourcebook" was announced but they lost the licence before it came out.

 

[DrCorby]

That region was called “the Triangle” in the old FASA roleplaying material. I can’t remember if it was supposed to be in the Gamma Hydra region — and I don’t have the roleplaying supplements any more to check.

It looks like there were two "Triangle" products from FASA in 1985 -- one sourcebook and one campaign setting. Memory Beta has some info on the setting, listing Starbase 10 as nearby. But a copy of the regional map doesn't show any sectors listed as Gamma Hydra.

An image I found online from the Star Charts book shows the Gamma Hydra sector on the opposite side of the Romulan Empire from the Klingon Empire. Yet The Wrath of Khan seems to indicate Gamma Hydra lies along the Klingon border. Like many things in Star Trek, it's wildly inconsistent.

So if I were running a Triangle campaign, I'd put the Gamma Hydra sector nearby, with Nimbus III, the Planet of Galactic Peace, within the Triangle's borders. Along with any lore from later series that seemed to fit. The joys of Star Trek roleplaying!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Also, after the test was over, Saavik asked Kirk for recommendations. Kirk replied, "Prayer, Mr Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners."

It makes you wonder what Saavik thought when she was taken prisoner by the Klingons in the very next movie.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It looks like there were two "Triangle" products from FASA in 1985 -- one sourcebook and one campaign setting...

An image I found online from the Star Charts book shows the Gamma Hydra sector on the opposite side of the Romulan Empire from the Klingon Empire. Yet The Wrath of Khan seems to indicate Gamma Hydra lies along the Klingon border. Like many things in Star Trek, it's wildly inconsistent.

I think you'd have to check Bantam's "Star Trek Maps", which came out before ST II, and also informed the FASA RPG. "Star Charts", by many of the same creative team as "ST Maps", came out much later and attempted to correct their earlier work with info from the movies.