the logic of the Star Wars cosmos

[Temis the Vorta]

This question has been bugging me in the back of my mind for a looooong time now...is there a coherent logic to how the Star Wars cosmos, and the Force, works? And if so, what is it, exactly?

The Force actively strives to maintain a balance between good and evil, but what does that mean? If I help a little old lady across the street, does that mean the Force sends a semi to run down a little old lady somewhere else?

The natural world also strives to maintain equillibrium in various ways, such as between predator/prey populations. But good and evil are human notions. A blind natural force would not have any way of telling one from another. So does this mean the Force is intelligent in a way that is parallel, if vastly beyond, human intelligence?

Is the Force therefore God?

If so, this is a diety very unlike the Christian one, since its goal is not an increase in good but instead will work against human efforts to increase good if it results in imbalance.

Does all this imply that Star Wars takes place not just in another galaxy but another reality, where the ground rules are different because they've been devised by a diety of a very different sort? A diety who will play the roles of God or Satan as events require?

 

[sidious618]

It's pure fantasy. There is no logic to it.

 

[6079SmithW]

In-universe there are two main theories of the Force, The Unifying Force and the Living Force. Unifying is basically "the Force creates life", so it is God. Jedi who accept this definition believe that destiny controls your life and you have little say in it. Living is "Life creates the Force" via midichlorians so it is more a biological phenomena. Jedi who take this approach see the individual as shaping their own destiny through their choices.

Also, in one of the "Jedi Apprentice" books a scientist finds out that when you use the Force your core body temperature drops, suggesting that the Force is somehow transffering your internal heat energy into external kinetic energy. This would also explain why it is easier to use the dark side since aggressive feelings like rage tend to get your heart pumping, raising your body temperature quickly.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Does all this imply that Star Wars takes place not just in another galaxy but another reality, where the ground rules are different because they've been devised by a diety of a very different sort?

Well, just for the fun of it, I must point out that some might disagree with your assumption that this reality was devised by a deity of any kind.

 

[Goliath]

Everything in the Star Wars cosmos stopped making sense as soon as The Phantom Menace began.

 

[Brolan]

Everything in the Star Wars cosmos stopped making sense as soon as The Phantom Menace began.

This.

 

[Gotham Central]

One thing to keep in mind is that there really is no such thing as the light and dark sides or a rigid notion of good and evil. It is the Jedi and the Sith that have assigned certain abilities a light and dark designation.

One of the more interesting ideas explored in the expanded universe is that neither the Jedi nor the Sith REALLY have a complete understanding of the force. The Jedi are especially wedded to the idea of the force being a binary power. However, Luke Skywalker and the NJO would come to understand that there are shades of gray within the force. I think that one of the better features of the prequels is that it suggests that Jedi dogma regarding the force maybe flawed. The theme is not fully explored in any of the movies, unfortunately.

 

[stj]

The Force stopped making sense when Obi-Wan Kenobi hoodooed a trooper into letting them pass into Mos Eisely. However did he know this was a weak-minded storm trooper? After you leave the theater you can pretend the Force either keeps the storm troopers from hitting anything they aim at. Also, since the relationship between the Force and some cockamamie light saber is completely obscure, the nonsensicality of the Force was upfront from the first.

 

[Silvercrest]

The Force actively strives to maintain a balance between good and evil, but what does that mean?

Is this canonically established? Besides the vague phrasing of that prophecy? I think we can agree that the Force was trying to balance itself in some sense, but between what set of extremes is NOT clear.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Also, in one of the "Jedi Apprentice" books a scientist finds out that when you use the Force your core body temperature drops, suggesting that the Force is somehow transffering your internal heat energy into external kinetic energy. This would also explain why it is easier to use the dark side since aggressive feelings like rage tend to get your heart pumping, raising your body temperature quickly.

Looks like there's a fine line between giving a good sciency explanation that reinforces Star Wars' sketchy claim to be sci fi and going overboard and spoiling things. The idea that Jedi transfer internal heat into kinetic energy is nifty (but a mere human would have a hard time generating enough energy to do the fancy tricks Jedi do - and how does mind control work?) So in general, I like that notion.

But the idea that the Dark Side is easier because it gets your adrenaline pumping starts to get too reductive. The Dark Side needs to be a moral choice that someone makes, that's more than just because it's convenient. There needs to be some mystery and magic left over that doesn't get spoiled by the science.

Does all this imply that Star Wars takes place not just in another galaxy but another reality, where the ground rules are different because they've been devised by a diety of a very different sort?

Well, just for the fun of it, I must point out that some might disagree with your assumption that this reality was devised by a deity of any kind.

Okay, if there's a diety at all, it's not a diety who throws old ladies under the bus just because you helped one across the street. Or is it? We may be onto something here.

Everything in the Star Wars cosmos stopped making sense as soon as The Phantom Menace began.

Well then ignore the stuff that doesn't make sense and just talk about the stuff that you like and think should be kept.

One thing to keep in mind is that there really is no such thing as the light and dark sides or a rigid notion of good and evil. It is the Jedi and the Sith that have assigned certain abilities a light and dark designation.

Abilities? Or is good or evil from a Jedi/Sith's goals or behavior? Killing innocent people is more evil than helping old ladies across the street, regardless of whether you use the Force to accomplish either.

I think that one of the better features of the prequels is that it suggests that Jedi dogma regarding the force maybe flawed. The theme is not fully explored in any of the movies, unfortunately.

That's what got me started on this line of thinking. Why didn't the Jedi realize that with just two Siths and tons of Jedi's running around, the Force would just naturally try to create a very powerful Sith to counterbalance all of them? And the most powerful one among them was Anakin. So they should have realized he was predestined to fall to the Dark Side. Killing him would do no good; the Force would find someone else. Trying to wipe out the Sith is a cosmic game of Wack-a-Mole.

The only way for the Jedi to prevent the emergence of a powerful Sith is for them to all commit suicide and leave strict orders that any child discovered with Force power should be immediately put to death. Maybe they need to start a eugenics program to eradicate the genetic basis of Force sensitivity.

It's fun to think that that's what they eventually do (after trying everything else in the book). And many eons later, the human race - in which the Force-using gene has been eradicated - is the result.

The Force stopped making sense when Obi-Wan Kenobi hoodooed a trooper into letting them pass into Mos Eisely. However did he know this was a weak-minded storm trooper?

He didn't have much choice except to give it a shot. He got lucky. Or is it really luck when something like that happens? Luke also got "lucky" with the shot that destroyed the Death Star. If the Force wants to use you to seek balance, suddenly your luck will be very good. Obi-Wan and Luke were fortunate that there were two very powerful Sith in the picture, and only two trained Jedi (one very elderly). The Force was on their side for a change.

Also, since the relationship between the Force and some cockamamie light saber is completely obscure

So it's really not known whether the lightsaber is "made of the Force"? Seems like it shouldn't just be a laser...

I think we can agree that the Force was trying to balance itself in some sense, but between what set of extremes is NOT clear.

Between the furthest extremes that sentient beings can behave, from the most good to the most evil. What other range would make sense?

 

[PsychoPere]

However, Luke Skywalker and the NJO would come to understand that there are shades of gray within the force.

While I do prefer this interpretation of the Force as well, we learn over the course of the Legacy of the Force series a new and disturbing fact about the character in NJO who was the main proponent of that view, casting doubt on her philosophy and those -- such as the major antagonist of LOTF -- who chose to embrace it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well, just for the fun of it, I must point out that some might disagree with your assumption that this reality was devised by a deity of any kind.

Okay, if there's a diety at all, it's not a diety who throws old ladies under the bus just because you helped one across the street. Or is it? We may be onto something here.

My job here is complete.

 

[fett51]

I've never gotten the sense the force was a god of any kind. It's what it says on the tin - a force. No consciousness involved. The source I know of that deals most explicitly with the idea of balance is Knights of the Old Republic 2, where it's laid out that the force is constantly seeking balance between the light and dark sides. One character resents this tremendously, saying that its constant attempts at "balance" kill billions and the galaxy would be far better off without it.

The balance stuff and the non-personalized divinity as it were is eastern, Taoist specifically.

 

[Venardhi]

I think the key to the 'balance of the force' isn't about having equal dark and light in the universe. Instead it makes a lot more sense, especially from the way the plot goes, to say that the dark side is disruptive to the universe and 'the force' on a fundamental level. 'Bringing balance' is about removing that disruption, not having equal bad and good.

 

[Silvercrest]

My take is that it wasn't about bad/good or dark/light. It was about two entrenched groups who were so far gone in their respective fields of thought (even "good") that they were hindering growth. The Force made the decision, "They're all assholes! Clear the field and start over!"

 

[Hound of UIster]

The Force actively strives to maintain a balance between good and evil, but what does that mean?

Is this canonically established? Besides the vague phrasing of that prophecy? I think we can agree that the Force was trying to balance itself in some sense, but between what set of extremes is NOT clear.

According to George Lucas balance means minimal dark side. Imbalance is the situation in the prequels where "the dark side clouds everything" in the words of one certain jedi.

But then Lucas also said that there was no sequel trilogy despite having said there was numerous times during the production of the original trilogy.

 

[6079SmithW]

Also, in one of the "Jedi Apprentice" books a scientist finds out that when you use the Force your core body temperature drops, suggesting that the Force is somehow transffering your internal heat energy into external kinetic energy. This would also explain why it is easier to use the dark side since aggressive feelings like rage tend to get your heart pumping, raising your body temperature quickly.

Looks like there's a fine line between giving a good sciency explanation that reinforces Star Wars' sketchy claim to be sci fi and going overboard and spoiling things. The idea that Jedi transfer internal heat into kinetic energy is nifty (but a mere human would have a hard time generating enough energy to do the fancy tricks Jedi do - and how does mind control work?) So in general, I like that notion.

But the idea that the Dark Side is easier because it gets your adrenaline pumping starts to get too reductive. The Dark Side needs to be a moral choice that someone makes, that's more than just because it's convenient. There needs to be some mystery and magic left over that doesn't get spoiled by the science.

Oops! Sorry for spoilers, but only the part about the core body temp dropping was in the book. I should have said that the rest is my conjecture. Guess I got carried away with a "hard sci-fi" explanation. As per the magic of it, this was actually sort of a comeback in the book from the jedi to the aforementioned scientist. Sure there is a biological aspect to the Force with the midichlorians but it takes something more to be a jedi knight.

 

[Set Harth]

One thing to keep in mind is that there really is no such thing as the light and dark sides

Yes, there really is such thing.

 

[6079SmithW]

Actually, to further display my geekiness, the idea that there is no such thing as "light" or "dark" side is called Potentium. Kreia from KOTOR 2 practiced this I believe. It was dismissed as BS by both sides, of course, cause both groups want their way to be the only way.

 

[Silvercrest]

According to George Lucas balance means minimal dark side. Imbalance is the situation in the prequels where "the dark side clouds everything" in the words of one certain jedi.

But then Lucas also said that there was no sequel trilogy despite having said there was numerous times during the production of the original trilogy.

Yeah, George had better just take his money and shut up before he digs himself a deeper hole.

Besides, if the Force-deity thinks the best way to minimize the dark side is to allow the destruction of the Jedi Order, engineer the ascendance of two of the worst human monsters who have ever lived, and stand by while uncounted billions are enslaved and exterminated... well, let's just say that I'm glad I live here.

And if I lived there, then when it came to the question of religion, I'd have to side with Han.