And how does everybody stand with all the racicm discussion in the Netherlands?
The Koude Kikker Lounge
- Thread starter Grendelsbayne
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Haven't heard much about it, other than the Witte de With centrum having to go without a name because people who are tired of seeing it vandalized the building.
Which is kind of absurd on the one hand, yet I don't have a lot of sympathy for them considering they literally decided themselves they should get a new name because of the guy's controversial background like three years ago yet somehow failed to get anywhere close to coming up with a new name since then... That's a bit longer than I'd consider reasonable when all you're looking for is a new name, especially if the reason you want one is that the old one is potentially offensive.
Which is kind of absurd on the one hand, yet I don't have a lot of sympathy for them considering they literally decided themselves they should get a new name because of the guy's controversial background like three years ago yet somehow failed to get anywhere close to coming up with a new name since then... That's a bit longer than I'd consider reasonable when all you're looking for is a new name, especially if the reason you want one is that the old one is potentially offensive.
We don't get much info about that side of NL. Last thing I heard was that the Zwarte Piet was to be abolished.
In Bavaria, we have the Krampus, who is also black. Nobody would dream of abolishing him or calling him racist. He's not African but just very sooty. Perhaps that would be a politically correct solution for Piet as well?
In Bavaria, we have the Krampus, who is also black. Nobody would dream of abolishing him or calling him racist. He's not African but just very sooty. Perhaps that would be a politically correct solution for Piet as well?
Well, there's abolished and there's abolished. A number of towns and institutions are changing and/or getting rid of him (them, actually), but others won't necessarily go along (at least not yet). And certain people and clubs will probably obsessively preserve the most controversial version imaginable in their own lives for decades to come just to spite the world for changing.
The soot thing, though, is problematic because it has been used an excuse for Zwarte Piet for several decades already with supporters very determinedly ignoring the fact that Piet is very explicitly visually based on a stereotypical 19th century cartoonish idea of a west african person (admittedly wearing fancy italian clothes) which obviously can't be explained away by soot. And when people tried to take them at their word and say 'so just drop the traditional appearance and have regular people just cover their faces in soot instead of blackface with red lipstick', they complained about that too because apparently just being sooty wasn't the 'real' Zwarte Piet.
There was also a short period of the 'Rainbow Pete' where they (in some places) tried to replace all the black petes with petes of all different colors. I thought that one made a lot of sense, since the way the character is used in all the modern storytelling to kids that goes on the 'Pieten' are basically just like Santa's elves. There's a whole race of them hanging around with Sinterklaas, helping him prepare and carrying presents, etc, and they literally don't come off as human at all so just going full fantasy and letting them be blue, green, red, etc, seems logical to me. But that ended pretty quickly. For some reason even people who think Zwarte Piet should change weren't really into the rainbow idea.
Is your Krampus black in the sense of a black/soot covered person? All the krampuses I've seen are very explicitly demonic still but that's mostly drawings and stories. I don't know much about the actual real world traditions. (Actually, even Black Pete was originally a demon back in the 1500s - my wife says if the Black Pete supporters love tradition so much we should just all go back to the actual beginning of the character and have Sinterklaas use him as a demonic slave.)
It varies regionally. In Upper Bavaria he is a sort of demon. In Upper Palatinate where I was born he's just a very dirty servant of Sinterclaas. He must do all the hard work for the saint, including cleaning, making firewood, working in the stables and catching bad children in his sack, and so in the evening he's naturally quite dirty and rather grumpy.
The African origin of Zwarte Piet might go back to the fashion of having African servants and page boys in the 17hundreds.
If I understand the arguments of the opponents correctly, they think the name a racial slur. Afrikaanse Piet might be a solution but it doesn't have the same ring. However, the makeup problem could easily be avoided by letting African refugees play that role. And it might help with their integration and acceptance.
The African origin of Zwarte Piet might go back to the fashion of having African servants and page boys in the 17hundreds.
If I understand the arguments of the opponents correctly, they think the name a racial slur. Afrikaanse Piet might be a solution but it doesn't have the same ring. However, the makeup problem could easily be avoided by letting African refugees play that role. And it might help with their integration and acceptance.
A sooty Piet doesn't work here because you are too reconnaissable for the kids. Rainbow Piet van work but you have to cover your whole face. I am a little tired of all the discussion, like with Veronica Inside. Especially with the idiots Akwasi and Jeffrey from kick out black Pete.
It's not just the name and the make-up, it's the entire visual design of the character. In fact it's arguable the cartoons and drawings are worse than the people in blackface since at least real people using make-up can't (or at least generally wouldn't) ridiculously enlarge their ears, lips, nose and butt to play further into old stereotypes. (Though they do also wear the curly hair wigs in addition to the make-up, which is another element.) Some of the cartoons I've seen, even modern ones, look disturbingly close to 19th cen. cartoons about slaves, only happier.
And the other thing people don't like is that in addition to being so heavily based on what a west African person looks like (according to old stereotypes, anyway) the character is also almost always portrayed as *incredibly* stupid. They do (or did at least) a one-off show on tv every year so the kids can see Sinterklaas and the Pieten on their way towards the country, getting ready to arrive and hand out candy. Every year the plot of the show was that a whole bunch of different Pieten made a bunch of incredibly stupid mistakes that almost ruin the holiday, until the 'Hoofdpiet', who's in charge of them all and mildly less stupid - but who still isn't played like someone normal - goes around and fixes all their mistakes.
I see. Over here, the angels prepare everything so there can't per definition be a mistake. The Krampus is rather intelligent but has a tendency to be rough and violent but that comes with the job. Bad children get put in his sack and he carries them to hell. Sometimes he lets them out on the way, if they can say their prayers properly and promise to behave. Not-so-bad children get no presents but a bunch of birch twigs as a warning that if they don't better themselves, the Christ child will not bring them anything at all on Christmas and Krampus might hit them with the twigs.
Good children get apples, oranges, cookies and nuts from Santa and they get presents from the Christ child on the evening of the 24th.
I'm sorry, Firefly. I didn't mean to pick a topic that you feel uncomfortable with.
Speaking of Rainbows: is there such a thing as CSD this year in NL or has it been cancelled because of Corona? In Munich they had a parade on bicycles this year and kept 1 bicycle length distance I was told.
Good children get apples, oranges, cookies and nuts from Santa and they get presents from the Christ child on the evening of the 24th.
I'm sorry, Firefly. I didn't mean to pick a topic that you feel uncomfortable with.
Speaking of Rainbows: is there such a thing as CSD this year in NL or has it been cancelled because of Corona? In Munich they had a parade on bicycles this year and kept 1 bicycle length distance I was told.
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No problem, I just don't like it when people wants to use violence against black Piet and the media have no problem with It. Maybe a stupid question but what does CSD mean?
Christopher Street Day. It's a gay/lesbian/bi/other festival held in rememberance of several gay people who were forced out of a pub in Christopher Street (NY) by a police raid for homosexuals in the 60s. It started quite a riot but it also was the first step towards equal rights for everone.
Ok never heard of it, I only know of the Gay parade in Amsterdam
the gay parade is based on the same incident. I love the parade in Munich - it's always a lot of fun, even for heteros 
The high heels 50 meters dash is particularly amusing, as is the handbag throwing challenge. This year because of Corona they have a video clip challenge which they'll stream on July 11th and a lot of small events during the whole week.
The high heels 50 meters dash is particularly amusing, as is the handbag throwing challenge. This year because of Corona they have a video clip challenge which they'll stream on July 11th and a lot of small events during the whole week.
I would compare them with Bassie(a clown) from Bassie & Adriaan when it comes to smartness...
Though 35 years ago they where portrayed as very dumb...
There is talk about some statues here in Holland of people who where responsible for making the Netherlands important and rich...
Slavery was a big part of that, same with colonization and these people where involved with both...
Bassie & Adriaan is before my time here but my wife (reading over my shoulder) immediately responded with 'Maar Bassie was *echt* dom', so...
As for the statue discussion, I don't know which ones specifically we're talking about and if I did, I'm not sure I'd understand the full context of them without looking it up to be able to judge. As a general idea I'll say I have no problem with removing statues of people who did terrible things even if they also were considered important at the time. It doesn't mean you erase the history, even the bad people still belong in the museums and history books. It's just maybe don't celebrate them on the public street.
I'll also say that it's always going to be a judgement call in that respect. As someone born and raised in the US, I have no problem with maintaining the Washington monument even though Washington was also a slaveholder. His contributions to the history of the country are that huge and most them are worth celebrating even though he wasn't a good man by modern standards. I don't think someone who's biggest achievement is making a bunch of people (or even an entire country, more or less) rich is necessarily comparable, though. And even someone who made great contributions to setting up, say, Nederlands-Indië would not necessarily be on my 'to celebrate' list since Nederlands-Indië was so miserable under Dutch rule.
It was pretty common back then, I'm afraid. Germany had African colonies only for a few decades but we didn't exactly excell in humanity. We solved the statue problem by attaching plaques that explain the positive and negative sides of the respective person.
We had that too on some statues but It didn't matter, It was still damaged by some stupid idiots
that sucks. After all, they are works of art in their own right. In the town where I studied, they had a very pretty Eagle on a bridge. Turned out that it was originally sitting on a swastika, having been erected during 3rd Reich. In '49 they simply took a saw, removed the swastica and - hey presto - they had a Federal Eagle
Germans have always been good at recycling
Germans have always been good at recycling
LOL nice theories!
Coincidentially, I had a carrot for breakfast. Does that mean I now get the Dutch nationality?
Coincidentially, I had a carrot for breakfast. Does that mean I now get the Dutch nationality?
LOL nice theories!
Coincidentially, I had a carrot for breakfast. Does that mean I now get the Dutch nationality?
Yes, I am sorry but you are one of us now
