The Kobayashi Maru Test

[tauntme]

The prime timeline KM test really irked me. Why would Starfleet give prime-Kirk a commendation if he cheated? According to some of you diehards who don't like how nu-Kirk was promoted to captain so fast, why would you sit by and back Starfleet when they gave an obvious cheater a commendation?

I don't buy that bullshit about thinking outside the box and all that. I looked down on prime-Kirk and prime-Starfleet because of that fact.

JJ Abrams protrayed the KM test exactly how I wanted it to be. Kirk's belief that building a no-win scenario is "cheating" is what brought about his blatant hacking of the system. Starfleet, like any honest institution that upholds honesty and integrity, did the right thing by calling Kirk out on it. Notice that they neither gave him a commendation nor did they immediately kick him out of the academy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

According to some of you diehards who don't like how nu-Kirk was promoted to captain so fast, why would you sit by and back Starfleet when they gave an obvious cheater a commendation?

Kirk got the commendation for original thinking. He certainly did that. It showed that he didn't just sit back and allow himself to lose. He figured out how to beat the system. Indeed, in this case, the system deserved to get beat, and Kirk was just the one for the job. That alone deserves some recognition.

In any case, getting a simple commendation medal is a lot easier to believe than a promotion all the way up to Captain, when Kirk was barely a Lt. out of the Academy.

 

[tauntme]

Not to me. Both are hard to believe. I didn't like how Kirk got promoted too fast, but I don't really care about that. After showing the necessary skills to captain a ship as well as saving countless Federation worlds, he deserved it, just not in 3 years. But, I can't see Kirk being an ensign or lieutenant either.

I don't like how prime-Kirk got a commendation for cheating, but I don't really care about that either. He didn't believe in no-win scenarios, so he cheated. Nope, I don't buy that prime-Starfleet thought well of his "out of the box" thinking. That's just stupid, especially of an academic institution like Starfleet Academy. Cheating is by far one of the worst things a student can do.

 

[perigee]

This preposterous load of bullwank is exactly why anyone that dares to criticise Trek XI in any way, shape or form feels backed into a corner. It's been little more than two weeks and already we have Star Trek fans admonishing other Star Trek fans for slating a single movie (cast in a style they dislike). Yet you have just had the gall to denigrate four series and over two decades worth of material. Someone's "perpective [sic]" is a little out-of-whack and it ain't mine.

Who am I to criticise (sic) you? After all, you like that funny guy who do the magic! Wooo - I blink like Jeannie, and the Mexican band do come, and the cigars poke out! He my favorite too!

Seems like I have a whole lot of material to pick from to denigrate - "four series and over two decades worth of material."

"A Huge Body of work," indeed. And, apparently, in your eyes, every single minute of which a shining gem of incomparable genius. After all, you wouldn't possibly judge unfairly, stacking the hours of programming this current franchise has not had against it in your favor - So, naturally, we should be able to judge quality hour versus quality hour.

Except.

I notice you did not actually choose to address the apples versus apples comparison. Strange. Opening movie versus opening movie; seems fair to me. But you chose to ignore that point completely. Forgetful - or convenient?

I like this bit - very dramatic:

"The character of Q alone is a hundred times more compelling than anything in Abrams' movie, in my opinion. Star Trek is not without its "borish [sic]", "preachy" or "leaden" aspects, but to be so callow about such a huge body of work is ridiculous. This is the same body of work that gave us Picard, Data, Worf, Sisko, Kira, Odo, Garek, Seven Of Nine, The Doctor, Archer, Phlox. The same body of work that gave us The Borg and The Cardassians, fleshed out The Klingons and The Romulans, introduced various "alien of the week"'s, some clever, some not. The same body of work that spawned episodes like "The Best Of Both Worlds", "Family", "The Inner Light", "All Good Things...", "Duet", "The Visitor", "In The Pale Moonlight", "Scorpion", "Living Witness" et al. The same body of work that introduced concepts like the holodeck, the Maquis, the Dominion War, unification between The Romulans and The Vulcans etc. A body of work that used many seasoned and talented actors and artisans to tell intriguing stories and craft a vivid world."
​

I like to picture you standing on some parapet, waving a red flag when you say it. But what Aren't you saying, exactly? I know - the fact that you're trying to bring to bear 772 episodes of Trek against one movie. Why aren't you saying,

This is the same body of work that gave us Trelane, Friendly Angel, Adonis, Bela Oxmyx, Parmen, Balok, Dr. Sevrin, Korob and Sylvia, Col. Green, Wyatt Earp, Janice Lester, Cloud William, The White Rabbit, Lutan, Dixon Hill, Sherlock Data, Armus the Trash Bag of Evil, and so much more.
​

The same body of work that gave us The Paklids and The Binars, The Gamesters of Triskelion, The Ekosians and the Zeons, the Andromedans, the Magna Romans, and shall I go on until I bore you to death?
​

You don't get to hide your trash under the carpet. There's too darn much of it. The fact of the matter is, we learn to deal with it, even love it, because without it, you cant get to the good stuff. You want STXI to represent the BEST of Trek... but did it Really represent the WORST of Trek? Because, if you really do the math, the best stuff came at the expense of many hours of junk. You glossed that over: "introduced various "alien of the week"'s, some clever, some not."

You reference "The Best Of Both Worlds" - 3rd-4th Season. "Family" - 4th Season. "The Inner Light" - 5th Season. "All Good Things..." - 7th Season. Where is your unending love for "Farpoint?" Why don't you sing me sonnets about Data's "fully Functioning" "Naked Now?" Tell me about your love for the cat fight in "Code of Honor." About how the Monkey Ferengi are amazing in "The Last Outpost?" You seem to be getting a whole lot of first chances here that you'd rather ignore.

Why? Why are you not judging all these first shows with the same vitriol that you're viewing this movie with? Answer Just That Question.

 

[tauntme]

He can't. He picks and chooses to make him feel better.

 

[DarthAkuma]

One of the biggest (and only) problems I really had with Star Trek was the entire Kobayashi Maru subplot.

I don't think Abrams quite grasped the nuances behind Kirk cheating on the test. In this movie, he apparently did it to rebel because he was tired of no one ever passing it. He was just an arrogant brat who cheated because he could. And when called on it, he didn't try to argue the valid point the original Kirk had. He did it, and I paraphrase, because he "didn't believe in no-win scenarios."

The whole point of original Kirk's cheating wasn't simply because he didn't believe in no-win scenarios. It was because he firmly believed that as a captain facing a no-win scenario, you had to think outside the box and do whatever was in your power to do to win. Which is exactly what he did. And it's exactly why he was (eventually) applauded for it.

What's worse, the new Kirk didn't even bother to be subtle about it. He didn't reprogram the scenario to simply give him a slight advantage in which he could use some kind of ingenious tactic to win. He just wiped out the shields, acting like a jerk, ate an apple, and pretended his hand was a revolver, all apparently under the assumption that no one would figure out he cheated so blantantly. Even worse, the new Spock acted bewildered at how he could have "won" the scenario after watching him do exactly that.

I'm just disappointed that it was such a wasted opportunity and, for me, it was easily one of the weakest character moments in the film that forever tarnishes the tactical brilliance of Kirk.

Still enjoyed the rest of the movie immensely, mind you. Just not this part.

This wasn't the original Kirk. I suspect original Kirk's solution was different than what we saw on screen

 

[tauntme]

Both Kirk's are still cheaters. Except in the prime timeline, Starfleet Academy is a joke who gives cheaters commendations.

 

[theFirebottle]

I'm going to reiterate a point I made earlier: you can't "cheat" on a personality test. There are no right or wrong answers, only answers that are indicative of your command style and approach to crises.

Prime Kirk's "cheating" would have been just as blatant and shameless as... dammit, I wish they'd given the new timeline a moniker so everyone shuts up with the "nu" crap. I know it's in reference to "nu-metal" and therefore a derogatory term.

Anyhow, Prime Kirk's "cheating" would have been about as shameless and indicative of his playful arrogance as the new Kirk's was. I mean, really... reprogramming the thing to know who you are... and acknowledge you as a living legend?

 

[tauntme]

It is cheating when you add an algorithm or sub-routine to tamper with the scenario. The makers of the KM test obviously wanted the cadets to be tested WITHIN the framework that they were given, not to add their own little spin on the test.

 

[theFirebottle]

It is cheating when you add an algorithm or sub-routine to tamper with the scenario. The makers of the KM test obviously wanted the cadets to be tested WITHIN the framework that they were given, not to add their own little spin on the test.

And Kirk's point was that the framework was meaningless, unrealistic, and contrived. He's correct, of course, since the test will occasionally throw stuff at you that objectively is not possible - for example, more Klingon ships than the entire Klingon civilization possesses or has ever possessed.

If I remember correctly from the novel on which most of the Maru-related fanon is based, the objective of the test was open-ended. Cadets were expected to do anything in their power to beat it while not being expected to actually beat it.

Kim Stanley Robinson's novel Red Mars talks about personality assessments. The one hundred colonists who are sent to Mars are all rigorously examined for their psychological and personality states with endless batteries of examinations. Most of the colonists secured their positions by lying about almost everything because of the Catch-22 inherent in the mission: you're not allowed to get sent to Mars if you're crazy, but you'd have to be crazy to want to go to Mars in the first place. Furthermore, the psych assessments were all based on a limited crop of middle aged white farmers from Minnesota, completely skewing what they deemed normal. The tests were irrelevant and counterproductive, so the only way to get past them was to "cheat".

The Kobayashi Maru is a similar case. It defies the suspension of disbelief of the incredibly smart cadets it's designed to study. It throws things at them that are not only improbable but asinine. The whole thing is a futile exercise.

 

[tauntme]

Kirk still cheated by tampering with the program. I know why Kirk did it, and I agree with him somewhat, but it is still cheating.

 

[theFirebottle]

Kirk still cheated by tampering with the program. I know why Kirk did it, and I agree with him somewhat, but it is still cheating.

No, it's not. It's a personality test. The parameters of the mission are wide open. You (attempt to) solve the problem in any way you can.

The only thing Kirk could legitimately get in trouble for is fucking with Academy computer security - which, in the real world, probably would get him expelled, fined, and charged with an actual crime - but that's beside the point.

You cannot cheat at a personality test.

 

[tauntme]

A personality test that's set within a framework. When you tamper with that framework to give you an edge, that's cheating.

This isn't some medical test or some sit-down test, it's a simulation. You're expected to go into that simulation to do the best that you can in it, without adding your own 3rd party program to help you.

 

[perigee]

Wow - I'm actually gonna post in this topic ON-Topic. That's a switch...

As a personality test, I think the third is the charm on this one. Test one, he handled it without freaking out... ok... He wants to do it again? Interesting... He went loco and breached computer security to beat it? Damn... tells you something right there...

Had he pulled it any time earlier, it would have been a scumbag manuever; as a third try, I like it.

Of course, as a personality test, I'm kinda with Firebottle - you can't Really cheat on it - not to the point where they bring you up on disciplinary charges. And, I dunno about a commendation, but I'm sure Kirk's solution would have been noted in his psych file.

 

[theFirebottle]

A personality test that's set within a framework. When you tamper with that framework to give you an edge, that's cheating.

This isn't some medical test or some sit-down test, it's a simulation. You're expected to go into that simulation to do the best that you can in it, without adding your own 3rd party program to help you.

Starfleet officers are expected to do whatever it takes to solve the problems they come up against. Starfleet Academy trains them to think critically and be creative, because otherwise they'd get themselves killed. How many times do Starfleet officers succeed on a seat-of-the-pants solution that blows conventional thinking out of the water? Starfleet needs to be flexible about The Rules because the rest of the universe isn't going to obey regs and play nice.

Yes, some of Starfleet's brass is populated by rigid bureaucratic cockgoblins, but if even some of them are thinking critically about what their purpose is in posing the Kobayashi Maru test, they will understand Kirk's point and the spirit it's offered in. And since they offered him a commendation and a command, they clearly seem to.

 

[aelius]

Really its only cheating if you try to hide it. What Kirk did was fly the bird to the test.
He did not like to lose and thought a test that gave no chance of victory, under any conditions, was nuts. He then set about to make his feelings on the subject known to the faculty in a way they could not ignore.

 

[Praetor]

Not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but there was a version of Kirk's defeat of the KM in a comic (this one, I believe) that I was pretty fond of until now. In it, Carol Marcus is at the Academy with Kirk, and has some help in getting him access to the computers. She is his comm officer during the test, and is surprised when Kirk is able to hail the Klingons.

After he identifies himself, the Klingons reply: "You are Captain Kirk? ...the Captain Kirk??"

That always seemed so dead-on Kirk to me. Pretty good storyline, too.

 

[Ovation]

I remember that story, and I liked it--but it is hardly any more "dignified" than what we saw on film.

 

[pookha]

Kirk still cheated by tampering with the program. I know why Kirk did it, and I agree with him somewhat, but it is still cheating.

i still think kirk got the commendation becaause as he pointed out in the movie the test ti itself is a chaet...cheat.

frankly to me it is setting up people for expectations of failure.

i dont think they would have automatcially given him the commendation but he had to convince them why the test itself had issues.

even if they continued to use it.

 

[22 Stars]

I would say the KM scene is probably my leas favorite because of the way it's played for the most part. Too heavy handed.