The Kobayashi Maru Solution.

[Shatnertage]

In the list of choices, withdraw would be an option, in the novel Kobayashi Muru I believe that was Sulu's choice.

Yeah, I think it was, too. Writing about it, it seems like a fail, but in the context of the story, it's fitting.

In general, the thing I don't get is that if cadets know going in that it's a "no-win scenario," and that cadets who don't win still graduate, it loses its diagnostic value. Or does it?

 

[C.E. Evans]

In the list of choices, withdraw would be an option, in the novel Kobayashi Muru I believe that was Sulu's choice.

In a different novel one cadet darted in, destroyed the Maru himself and then ran back into Federation space, that too had never been tried before.

It's probably a standard Romulan tactic, though...

 

[F. King Daniel]

You don't know it's a no-win scenario the first time - or at least I don't think Saavik did in Wrath of Khan. Kirk was taking it for the third time in STXI and had either figured it out or been told. In the Kobayashi Maru novel, I think the students who'd taken it were forbidden from giving specifics to the ones who hadn't (I read it a long time ago, I might be wrong).

I think the Kobayashi Maru test would determine what kinds of missions the command student is sent on when they graduate. An epic fail (i.e. panic in the face of death or do something utterly stupid) and you'll max out as captain of a freighter in friendly territory, where you can do no harm, or perhaps be stuck with a deskbound career (think Commander Remmick from TNG). Keep your cool and you get all the dangerous and/or higher-profile missions.

 

[JarodRussell]

To make this scenario work (and to allow cadets to take it several times) the parameters of the scenario must change every time, and - which would make the most sense - change at runtime. It would always be a ship called Kobayashi Maru sending an emergency message, but every else like location, circumstances, ship class, enemy forces, etc... would be different. The point is that you simply cannot beat this scenario, no matter how hard you try, no matter what tactical genius you are. If you manage to beat the first group of Klingon/Romulan/Tholian/Whatstheirnames ships, the supervisor would confront you with another problem, and so on. And Kirk showed he was an even greater genius because he really thought outside the box and changed the simulation itself. Which is what the commendation for original thinking was for.

Which is why I still think they got the purpose of the test wrong in the new movie. It makes no sense to take a test with the purpose to create "fear in face of certain death" in a clearly recognizable simulator (with people watching you from above through huge windows), and even less sense to be able to take it three times. The effects were totally unconvincing. The graphics were clearly artificial, and nothing happened inside the room (unlike in TWOK, when everything exploded around them). Nobody in the movie was scared during that test. The writers made the mistake to take David Marcus' statement "He cheated." seriously, although that character never took the test, had no idea what it was about and accused someone he wanted to kill an hour before.

 

[DonIago]

Given that Kirk himself said it's a test of character more than anything else, I don't see how changing the parameters of the test would make any difference, since the whole point is that no matter how the cadet reacts to the scenario, there's no winning solution. Even if they know what they're walking into in advance, that isn't going to change the fact that the best they can hope for is a resolution they'd be able to live with.
Kirk taking the test three times is in and of itself a reflection of his character - he refuses to give up, or ultimately accept the nature of the test itself.

My understanding is that the scenario was unbeatable simply because no matter how many enemy ships were destroyed, more arrived before the cadet would have time to rescuse the survivors of the KM...in fact, oftentimes before the cadet even had the chance to verify whether the KM existed or was a decoy.

I agree that the purpose of the test in the movie seems a little...blurred, but primarily because I think one's reactions to a no-win scenario may be different if they know from the outset that it -is- a no-win scenario. Like I said before in reference to Troi's test, the more information you give the test-taker upfront, the less reliable I think they results may be.

I don't really understand your point about exploding consoles, since the one time we see the test in the movie the ship doesn't necessarily sustain enough damage that consoles would explode in any case. I also don't think we really saw -scared- cadets in TWoK. Saavik clearly felt ashamed of her performance in the scenario, but I imagine Kirk (either one) felt much the same way the first time he took the test. I'd be curious to hear whether Saavik ever retook the test, and how she resolved it when she did.

 

[T'Girl]

The cadets might have faced rescue scenarios in the same simular previously, the simulator can't be only for the Kobayashi Maru. And the ship probably isn't always the Kobayashi Maru. Kirk faced the KM and later he put Saavik up against the KM because she was a favored student.

Maybe we misunderstood exactly why alternate Kirk was called before the Academy hearing board, while Spock wanted to know how Kirk reprogrammed the test, that wasn't the reason he was there. I know I'm beating a dead horse here but, Kirk violated the Starfleet ethical code of conduct by firing on those five unshielded Klingon ships without warning after rendering them defenseless. No quarter and no mercy. If Kirk's reprogramming deactivated the Klingon's shields, perhaps he also deactivated the Klingon's weapons as well.

The Federation's and Starfleet's number one hallmark is it's ethical and moral stance, no they don't always live up to it, but the ethics of the cadets at the academy would have to be above reproach. The Kobayashi Maru scenario is a test of character not tactical ability, Kirk was before the board because of his troublesome choices.

SPOCK: Furthermore, you have failed to divine the purpose of the test.
KIRK: Enlighten me again.
SPOCK: The purpose is to experience fear. Fear in the face of certain death.
KIRK: Certain death? It was a simulator, I knew it was a simulator.
SPOCK: Oh okay. Well then to accept that fear, and maintain control of oneself and one's crew.
KIRK: My crew? There were only six people in the simulator, none of whom lost control. So I won the test right?
SPOCK: Cadet Kirk. A Captain cannot cheat death.
KIRK: I didn't cheat death, I seduced it after drinks.


.

 

[DonIago]

I'm pretty sure Kirk was called before the board for hacking the simulator, myself.
Though it would have been a very interesting twist if he'd been called before the board for firing on unarmed ships. Then again, they initially fired on him first.

 

[JarodRussell]

Given that Kirk himself said it's a test of character more than anything else, I don't see how changing the parameters of the test would make any difference, since the whole point is that no matter how the cadet reacts to the scenario, there's no winning solution. Even if they know what they're walking into in advance, that isn't going to change the fact that the best they can hope for is a resolution they'd be able to live with.
Kirk taking the test three times is in and of itself a reflection of his character - he refuses to give up, or ultimately accept the nature of the test itself.

That's probably the reaction the "original" Starfleet wanted to see from their cadets (and why they eventually gave Kirk that commendation). Also, TWOK Kirk seemed to have wanted to find a solution to the problem. Trek 2009 Kirk wanted to show that the test was ridiculous. That is to me another major difference.

The cadets might have faced rescue scenarios in the same simular previously, the simulator can't be only for the Kobayashi Maru. And the ship probably isn't always the Kobayashi Maru. Kirk faced the KM and later he put Saavik up against the KM because she was a favored student.

I think there are MANY scenarios that can be run on that bridge simulator. But one of them is called "The Kobayashi Maru Scenario" and awaits almost every cadet near the end of the Academy, I guess.

The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc with students and equipment.

 

[Timo]

The data we have so far (from STII and STXI) doesn't quite yet establish whether Kobayashi Maru = no-win scenario, or whether one is merely a subset of the other.

From TWoK, it could be inferred that all those studying up for command need to face a no-win scenario, and out of the broad selection of those, the one involving a distressed ship named Kobayashi Maru tends to wreak havoc with students and equipment. Other no-win scenarios may involve defeats of other sorts, and may be more meaningful to, say, somebody aspiring to command a dockyard or a hospital. Perhaps Spock even chose to use Kobayashi Maru for Saavik as a birthday gift of sorts for Kirk, a notable previous KM wrecker?

Keeping countless generations of students surprised by the scenario is probably not a problem after all. They may know going in that they're facing what everybody calls the no-win scenario: their reactions to that might be interesting nevertheless, or perhaps exactly because of this. The scenario could vary from case to case just for the heck of it, or perhaps because it serves the secondary function of honing problem-solving or combat skills, or because all the "extras" in such a test get practical training when the center-seat guy or gal sweats out the psych test part.

In that sense, Starfleet probably saw no harm in letting Kirk try out the scenario a couple of times. They already had their psych results, and they were now getting extra material, in addition to having an opportunity to train the "extras" on their duties. Spock's accusation would still be valid, if not quite timely: Kirk had failed to comprehend the true purpose of the simulation already when applying for a second try. But Spock was one of those allowing Kirk to try again, so this was apparently not a big problem, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Actually, in a somewhat Borg-ian way, Spock might figure there's no harm in letting people take the KM scenario as many times as they'd like on the improbable but not impossible chance that they do something that hasn't been considered previously, and hence illuminate a way to make the scenario even less winnable than it already is.

I'd have to rewatch the specific part of the film, but Spock did seem to have a bit of wounded pride at the notion that Kirk had beaten and/or cheated his way through the test. Of course, I'm sure he'd deny such an accusation.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think the idea that nuSpock had anything to do with admission or aproval of cadets to the scenario is false. He is just the programmer.

Perhaps Spock even chose to use Kobayashi Maru for Saavik as a birthday gift of sorts for Kirk, a notable previous KM wrecker?

That is really stretching it, I guess.

 

[T'Girl]

Okay, how about this?

All academy cadets, not just "command tract" take the KM. The cadets are told that they can take the test multiple times, but that it's not required more than once. The cadet's are lead to believe that the KM is winnable and that succeeding in the rescue is important to their overall academics. The academy deliberately weakens the security firewalls protecting the KM simulation below the academy's standard level of protection. Not even the instructors know about this because some cadets are telepaths. And then they wait.

The KM is bait

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always thought the Kobayashi Maru scenario was merely a psych test (of how a starship commander who react in the face of certain annihilation), and everyone at the Academy knew it as that godawful "no-win" scenario.

Most cadets probably only took the test once because going more times wouldn't change the outcome unless you knew how sneak in ahead of time and reprogram the computer so you could win...

 

[DonIago]

^Or at least came up with a different strategy you thought might somehow make a difference.

 

[Edgarus]

In the original universe James Kirk entered the Starfleet Academy in his late teens, graduated in his early twenties. At some point Kirk took the Kobayashi Maru test three times, he reprogrammed the test so he could save the ship and received a commendation for original thinking. From Kirk's statements in TWOK.

In the Abrams universe James Kirk entered the academy in his early twenties and graduated in his mid twenties. At some point Kirk took the Kobayashi Maru test three times, he reprogrammed the test so he could destroy the Klingon attackers and faced a Academy hearing for violating the ethical code of conduct. As we saw on screen.

Was Kirk's solution for solving the test the same in both universes? If Gaila entered the academy at the same time in both universes, she would have entered after younger Kirk graduated and would have been unavailable to have helped him (non-canon), If the arrival of the Narada change academy procedures, that could have accounted for the different treatment of the two Kirk's using the same solution.

The original Kirk was a younger man at the time of the test, he was his father's son and many believe he was more studious. His solution might have been more intellectual, I believe it was in the (non-canon) novel Kobayashi Maru that told one version of the story where Kirk peacefully solve the test and in the end invited the Klingon commander for dinner aboard the Enterprise. A (possible different?) peaceful solution might have been the reason Kirk was given a commendation for "cheating."

The Abrams's Kirk on the other hand was older at the time of the test, raise without the in aid of George Kirk and prior to entering the academy he was more rebellious. His solution was more violent, it involved causing five klingon warbirds to drop their shields so he could destroy all five with a single photon torpedo each. Perhaps it was the method of Kirk's solution (in addition to the reprogramming) that resulted in the academy hearing for ethics.

The two tests might have been different, the earlier version of the test might have presented one Kirk with options the other Kirk didn't have available to him. In older Kirk's test he was directly ordered to rescue the ship by Starfleet, during Saavik's test she was given the option of whether or not she wished to initiated a rescue. Also during Saavik's test, there was a possibility the Kobayashi Maru wasn't even there. It's not obvious that Spock programmed the test or was running the simulator when younger Kirk took his test.

What do you think?

I dont know if anyone has posted this, but i read that in a Novel, the kobayashi maru. It explains how the various characters took the challenge, wether its considered cannon or not, i still think the solutions do match the characters. Basically kirks cheat was different, dont know if its considered the "offical" solution or not. Part of me was glad to see Kirks solution in the new films, i mean lets face it if they did a Starfleet academy episode they couldnt not mention it. But personally id have rathered not know, its better to guess

(Taken for wikipedia for ease)

• Chekov evacuates his ship and then crashes it into the three Klingon cruisers, destroying all four ships in the process and (inadvertently) all of the evacuees as well.
• Sulu realizes it is probably a trap and refuses to cross the Neutral Zone.
• Scotty attempts to fight the Klingon ships, employing a series of unorthodox tactics, such as bypassing the Klingon shields using a works-on-paper-only calculation and transporting various destructive items to them. The failure-to-work-in-practice demonstration experiment was published by Scotty before he joined Starfleet and this fore-knowledge of theory and practice results in his being judged unsuitable for a command track and he is sent off to engineering, as he actually desired. At first, he is surprisingly effective, but the computer scenario ups the ante with the arrival of additional Klingon ships. Scotty responds in kind with even more unorthodox tactics that rapidly escalate in on-the-fly engineering derring-do and destructiveness. He eventually loses to a staggering fleet of fifteen ships, but claims that if there had been an actual engineering room in which he could have performed his instructions himself, they would have been destroyed as well. This example proves it clear that the simulation will never end, no matter what the student throws at the Klingon ships, as an ever-increasing number of Klingon vessels will arrive on the scene, guaranteeing that the testee will lose eventually.

• Kirk reprograms the simulated Klingons to be afraid of "The Captain Kirk", arguing that he expected to build a comparable reputation.

 

[Timo]

Then there's Peter Kirk, the surviving nephew, who in Crispin's Sarek challenges the enemy captain to an honorable duel, during which a rescue is effected. The scenario in that book yields to "rules" or "realism" and lets Kirk win, instead of e.g. postulating an enemy captain who'd break the honor rules.

Of course, this "solution" would end up with Kirk dead or at best imprisoned, so perhaps it would still meet Starfleet's requirements for observing the test subject in personal defeat.

All academy cadets, not just "command tract" take the KM.

We know that at least Spock never took it - but of course we don't know if Spock ever was a cadet. In the prime timeline, that is. In STXI, it's heavily suggested Spock entered Starfleet Academy more or less the normal way and graduated from there, instead of e.g. first getting Vulcan military training and then merely "transferring his flag".

Or then we could interpret Spock's death scene line "I never faced the no-win scenario" as Spock bragging that he won. He just didn't do it as cadet, like Kirk (because then Kirk wouldn't be the only one), but instead as a postgrad, like Saavik.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

The early version of the STXI script at imsdb.com says Spock didn't have to take the test because he is a Vulcan:

Spock:
The purpose is to experience fear. Fear in the face of certain death. To accept that fear and maintain command of one's self and one's crew. This is a quality expected in every Starfleet captain.

Kirk absorbs that. Then--

Kirk:
So you're telling me the point. Of the whole thing. Is to be afraid?

Spock:
Fear is necessary, yes.

Kirk:
Have you taken the test, Commander Spork?

Spock:
Spock. As a Vulcan, I require no additional training to control my narcissism when making command decisions.

No he DIN'T! Kirk's hit guys for a lot less -- the crowd all but "OOOOOOHs." But Kirk ain't fucking done yet.

Kirk:
You keep reminding me that you're a Vulcan. And I'm sure you're really proud of that, who wouldn't be-- but isn't it true you peole don't experience fear at all?

Kirk:
And if that's the case -- What's that say about your ability to make command decisions?

 

[Timo]

Certainly the logistics of giving that test to a student are so formidable that it's a wonder they manage to put every command-line cadet through it. Any excuse to liberate a cadet from the obligation would be welcome...

Really, if we assume that McCoy also took a similar test, and that it involved similar resources (not necessarily a full starship bridge simulator with full bridge crew, but perhaps a starship sickbay simulator with full medical crew?), and that Scotty took the test, customized for his field of study, and that Uhura took it... This would mean big trouble. Even if Starfleet Academy was scaled like today's military academies and processed only a thousand graduations per year, there'd be three such simulations every day. And Starfleet year classes are probably much larger than that. If Kirk suggested taking the test a second time, he'd probably be keel-hauled by those responsible for the logistics.

But if the Kobayashi Maru simulation only pertains to command-line cadets, and not even all of those (because some leave it to postgrad), then we might be looking at a manageable number of simulations.

And if the test only affects those who are deemed to be in actual need of psychological testing, and Vulcans (save for poor Saavik) are excused...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marten]

The shere number of student has always bothered me. There is no way all the officers required in Star Fleet can be trained at the same place.

 

[T'Girl]

Up until the late movie I kind of made the assumption that McCoy didn't go to the academy. That after becoming a MD, at some point he went to Starfleet OTS, or something like it.

We don't know if most of the Enterprise's officers went to the academy. As I remember only Grey Mitchell and Kirk ever stated that they went there. Kirk taught a class there as a LT.