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The Killing Game - Poorly Executed:

Totally cool. You are not the only Trek fan who breaks things down in Trek differently than I do. Everyone sees it differently. I wouldn't call your opinions "nitpicking", it's simply a matter of looking at things from a different perspective. My Trek opinions seem to be a bit more superficial, as I tend to look at episodes simply on how much I am entertained. I completely respect you guys who dig a bit deeper into the stories.

Actually to be honest, I view most ST episodes that way too.... this was just one thing that stuck with me from my upbringing with WWII stuff all around me... it's just something I couldn't really ignore when I saw the episode..... I kept trying to watch it and enjoy it for what it was, but all throughout the episode I was biting my lip and holding back my thoughts like "That's completely wrong, that's wrong too.... that shouldn't be like this.... holy crap, we're they drunk when they made this up.... that's wrong.... that shouldn't be that way."

My past experience just sorta ruined this story for me, that's all, and I was just wondering if anybody else picked up on these things too and/or explain their own thoughts on this episode.

I hated the whole Hirogen story arc completely. The aliens were such a blatant rip off of the Predator series and worse they were portrayed as Predators 'light.'

Agreed.

They only showed the germans, americans, and french. That DOES NOT mean that they were ignoring everyone else. It just happened to be the setting of the story.

Agreed.... but not once do I remember them saying "The Allies".... it was all the "Americans" this or "Americans" that.... and the only allied weapons shown were American ones (besides the German weapons)..... which many in the French Resistance also used Sten MKII SMG's, etc. etc..... but anyways, that wasn't my biggest gripe, since I knew this was supposed to be based around a setting involving US Soldiers and German soldiers in a specific city/town..... it would have been nice to have a bit more tossed in to give a better impression that it was the US who fought the Germans single handedly and won..... but I don't care so much about that.
 
Seriously, I STILL don't see how the Hirogen are like the Predators, other than the Hirogen are (p)redators.

Even Wiki sees the parallels:

Similar to the aliens of the Predator species from the science fiction franchise of the same name, the Hirogen are presented as a species driven by the hunt, who prize highly the unusual trophies taken from the carcasses of their prey. They are not decribed as having a home planet, and their society is apparently organized around spacefaring nomadic hunting packs or tribes, with a hierarchical structure in which an 'alpha' individual leads and a 'beta' and 'gamma' are respectively secondary and tertiary subordinates. Contact between tribes is maintained through an ancient communication network over vast distances. Before the hunt, the Hirogen ritualistically apply paint to their armor. Hirogen hunters are shown as being much taller than humans, usually over two metres in size with a muscular build evolved for combat, and are usually shown wearing armour, with masks for inhospitable environments. There has only been one 'civilian' Hirogen shown onscreen; in the seventh season episode "Flesh and Blood," a Hirogen technician is introduced who does not participate in hunting (and is looked on with disdain by others of his species, as he has no taste for the hunt).
 
How far did you think they were going to go in showing them kill on a general audience show?

I'm sure you've seen the TNG Episode Conspiracy. When Riiker and Picard kill the aliens that are inside Star Fleet personnel exposing his chest cavity on TV and then his head explodes that has to be one of the most graphic scenes I've ever seen on television.

Point being - the Predators light err Hirogen were a terrible rip off from cinema.

Seriously, I STILL don't see how the Hirogen are like the Predators, other than the Hirogen are (p)redators.

They collect skulls and bones of their prey and have them all over their ships, they have these high tech suits that allow them to go just about anywhere, including hostile environments, their society is based all around hunting dangerous and intelligent game, ie: other intelligent species such as humans... seemed like a pretty good rip off to me.
 
I'm sure you've seen the TNG Episode Conspiracy. When Riiker and Picard kill the aliens that are inside Star Fleet personnel exposing his chest cavity on TV and then his head explodes that has to be one of the most graphic scenes I've ever seen on television.

Point being - the Predators light err Hirogen were a terrible rip off from cinema.

Seriously, I STILL don't see how the Hirogen are like the Predators, other than the Hirogen are (p)redators.

They collect skulls and bones of their prey and have them all over their ships, they have these high tech suits that allow them to go just about anywhere, including hostile environments, their society is based all around hunting dangerous and intelligent game, ie: other intelligent species such as humans... seemed like a pretty good rip off to me.
Every alien species in Trek since TOS is inspired by something. The Klingons were inspired by Mexican bandits from old fashioned westerns before getting remade to resemble Samurai from Akira Kirosawa films.
 
Every alien species in Trek since TOS is inspired by something. The Klingons were inspired by Mexican bandits from old fashioned westerns before getting remade to resemble Samurai from Akira Kirosawa films.

Inspiration is one thing but IMHO the Hirogen are a virtual duplication and rip off form a popular film.
 
Every alien species in Trek since TOS is inspired by something. The Klingons were inspired by Mexican bandits from old fashioned westerns before getting remade to resemble Samurai from Akira Kirosawa films.

Inspiration is one thing but IMHO the Hirogen are a virtual duplication and rip off form a popular film.
I guess that was the piont.
Folks like the Predators, so it would be cool to see something like them in the Trek universe. Worked for me.
I liked them so much the name Hirogen is part of my private email account.
 
...... plus the fact that the entire episode seemed to give the impression that WWII only consisted of the Germans, "Americans" and the occupied French.....

I dunno.... I always figured if you're going to make an episode relating to our history/past.... you'd do your home work and make it accurate, or don't do it at all.

I guess you could say this was history as filtered through the Hirogen viewpoint so it would only contain the elements they were interested in for their own particular hologram story.

That being said while there are individual scenes in this episode that I greatly enjoy this isn't in my personal top ten. I think they sacrificed good story-telling in exchange for shock value, wrote themselves into a corner then had to end with the technology exchange which went against Janeway's policy up until then (ie the Kazon, etc).
 
Killing Game isn't my favourite 2 parter but it was enjoyable. Any of its bad points are outweighed by getting to see Janeway give Seven Flirty looks while wearing a white tux. I liked the way Seven and Janeway were holding their guns in a Charlie's Angels sort of way and then running away as a building explodes behind them. Cheesy? Yes. Did I mind? No.
 
The crew were brainwashed into thinking they were other people. They were not programmed.

Brainwashing is Programming of the Mind... they are one in the same.... the fact that they required devices to keep them into character is also a suggestion of Programming.

Besides, there's absolutely no reason for the Hirogen to have wanted to bother with super brainwashing them so that they acted exactly as they would have during that time period. They were more interested in creating interesting and hard to do kills. Why waste time and resources on exact historical records?
Because what I'm talking about is basic writting of the story and the training the actors got with operating the props they were given. They already explained in the episode that some of the character's attributes were coming through in their holodeck scenarios, so I can over look that aspect.... my issue was towards their handling of the weapons/props.... I'm sure the Hirogen didn't train every one of the crew on how to operate those weapons or the general lingo of the era, it came with the holodeck program, which, if one wanted to take this to the ST universe explanation, the computer would have known how to design the uniforms accurately and the computer would have been able to obtain the proper physics of the firearms they were using, in that they'd have kick back/recoil, thus forcing Torres's hands to recoil back a bit per shot fired, rather then her "Pew Pew'ing" the gun as if she was throwing the bullets out of the gun..... the holodeck would have programmed the proper sounds of the M1 snapping the metal clip out with a loud "Pling", etc.

Heck if the holodeck can program accurate bars, locations, smells, tastes, people, etc. through TNG, DS9 and Voyager.... why suddenly would the Holodeck make these obvious blunders?

It wouldn't, the logical answer is that the creators of the episode screwed up & didn't pay attention.

I wasn't talking about substituted sounds with my example of Torres.... I was talking about her hand motion when the gun was fired. I'm well aware of the substituted sounds used in Film/TV.

The only comment I made on sound was when Paris's M1 emptied, which lacked any sound at all.

That's of course subjective to the individual and like I said, I imagined to the average viewer, most wouldn't notice these things or perhaps just not care.... in my view it's one of the worst ST episodes I've ever seen which has more to do with the creators of the episodes rather then the actual story.

How do you know it's not tied into our own internal, factual history and that ST is based on some "similar" past as our own?

Sure the whole Khan Singh super race thing isn't actually true to our past history, but considering that concept was created before that time became our past, it doesn't relate to this as an accurate example.... since WWII really occurred before TOS aired, and occurred before this episode.... WWII's reference in many ST episodes was revolved around the Actual WWII and what occurred during it that we all grew up learning about.

It can, and it does.... as an example, how about you take a story that claims to represent the War of 1812, toss in British "Red Coats" into the story, but have them wearing purple coats..... and then tell me that wouldn't detract from the overall story. Or as another example, have them carrying M-16's and tell me that wouldn't detract from the actual story.

As I said, I found nothing really wrong with the story itself (Besides the Prime Directive offense at the end) it's these aspects I mentioned that detract from the overall story in that if someone who actually knows a thing or two about the historical aspects of what's being explained saw this, they would be taken out of the element of the story because you don't actually "Feel" you're there in the story.... because the elements of that story are not real, or at the very least, looks real.

If the actors were sitting in a room reading the script out loud (with feeling) while wearing togas, it would still be a good script.

Costuming is only a small portion of what makes a storyline on screen good.
I already said that these are small parts to the overall story.... where if one thing was wrong it wouldn't be very noticeable or could be easily ignored.... but with a collection of errors in these "small" things, it can and will detract from the story itself, because it's not just what you hear that tells you the whole story, it's also what you see..... especially for film/tv.

-------------

As another thing to add to my gripes about this episode.... there was that part when Janeway was being chased by the Hirogen through the ship and she comes across the area where the Holo emitters were damaged/not completed. She led the Hirogen to this area and he fell for it, walked into the area where the holo emitters didn't work, lost his K98.... but then Janeway picks it up and chases after him.....

.... where the hell did the K98 come from if the holo emitters didn't work there and the one the Hirogen had disappeared?

Even MemoryAlpha doesn't explain exactly what the heck happened:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Killing_Game,_Part_II_(episode)

".....With her injured leg she can't move as fast as he can. However, she finds an area where the holoemitters do not reach, gets him to move his weapon into it, and then knocks him down, seizing his weapon. Janeway asks him to tell his hunters to stand down but he attacks her and she shoots him."

When watching the episode, he walks into it and it vanishes from his hands.... but then it's on the ground, perfectly fine. :vulcan:



Sounds as if you expected Star Trek to do a documentary on WWII with all the great attention to detail you're asking for. Plus Trek is a show for the general audience. Things are toned down on such a show because it has to meet approval from a ratings board.

Might I suggest "Band of Brothers" instead of Star Trek next time.

Seen it... even it has flaws, but that's a different topic.... I wasn't expecting to have a 100% authentic WWII reference, nor did I ever claim anything of the sort, but there are flaws in those episodes which I haven't seen since the 70's, early 80's..... and I found that through many of the details ST has kept to over the years through similar references, the amount of blundering in the development in this story is pretty surprising and simply isn't up to snuff with other episodes.

None of what I have point out is some unjust amounts of attention to detail..... everybody with a grade 9 education should know what the nazi flag looks like, everybody should know that the greater majority of uniforms of the time for german officers had the arm bands.... and it doesn't take any great amount of study or education/experience to know that firearms have a level of kickback/recoil, thus it shouldn't have been too hard to act like they're producing some kick back, rather then shooting lasers and throwing the gun forward to lob the bullet and expect to actually hit anything.

Believe it or not, but many of these things should be common sense, maybe not for the average viewer, but for those creating the episodes, it should be common sense.
...but if the majority of the average audience doesn't care, then the few that do doesn't matter. Those in charge have reached their targeted audience.

I statement like Tomalok301: "It was this episode that got me interested in WWII History, so I think it did something right." and those like him is going to mean more and have more impact on TPTB than one persons complaint about uniforms & lack of gun recoil. Like I said, it's not a documentary so they aren't going to care.
 
I believe the OP said he wanted to know if anyone else:

1) Noticed the errors
2) Cared about them
3) Lost appreciation for the episode because of it

Clearly my answer was no to all of the above
 
I believe the OP said he wanted to know if anyone else:

1) Noticed the errors
2) Cared about them
3) Lost appreciation for the episode because of it

Clearly my answer was no to all of the above

Okay.

Didn't notice.

Wouldn't have cared.

Didn't affect my enjoyment of the show.

Aloha!

(If they are bringing back "Hawaii 5-0", can "The Snoop Sisters" be far behind?) :rolleyes:
 
I believe the OP said he wanted to know if anyone else:

1) Noticed the errors
2) Cared about them
3) Lost appreciation for the episode because of it

Clearly my answer was no to all of the above

Okay.

Didn't notice.

Wouldn't have cared.

Didn't affect my enjoyment of the show.

Aloha!

(If they are bringing back "Hawaii 5-0", can "The Snoop Sisters" be far behind?) :rolleyes:
:lol:

Actually, it's only Hawaii 5-0 by name, most everything else is completely different.


Meanwhile, back at the Federation.......:lol:
 
...but if the majority of the average audience doesn't care, then the few that do doesn't matter. Those in charge have reached their targeted audience.

Funny, I thought the targeted audience started to drop off which is why they brought in Seven.... but anyways, I'm not here to stand on a soap box to claim that you or anybody else is wrong for liking the episodes.... I was asking if anybody else noticed these things and if these things or other things detracted their liking of these episodes.

Besides that, I was also voicing my opinion on why I didn't like the episodes and giving examples as to why.... I'm not in here to try and fit into the popular crowd and kiss arse..... if the majority of the average audience doesn't care, so be it.... I do and I explained why I do.... which has more to do with the production of the episodes more then the story itself.

imo, the story and episodes could have been pretty impressive, but they dropped the ball on many of the finer details which give the overall story an impression of being quite amateur.

And as a reminder, I am noting "My Opinion" ~ I have yet to claim something as absolute fact which all should follow or face my wrath. ;)

I statement like Tomalok301: "It was this episode that got me interested in WWII History, so I think it did something right." and those like him is going to mean more and have more impact on TPTB than one persons complaint about uniforms & lack of gun recoil. Like I said, it's not a documentary so they aren't going to care.
Like I said, to each their own.... but just because my view doesn't align to the popular opinion, doesn't mean I should some how feel bad about expressing my honest opinion about these episodes and explain why, nor will I stop expressing my honest opinion any time soon.... be that this subject or any others that come along.

People watch these shows for many different reasons.... for me, due to my past education, experiences and such, these sort of things are what I notice and these are the things that can add to a story, or ruin it altogether. Because I've been doing this sort of thing for so long now, it's something I can't simply turn off.... these things shine like a big red beacon to me when I see them.... where I suspect most either wouldn't pick up on them (as they're focusing on other things in the story/show).

I notice the subtle things in advertisements, commercials, tv shows, movies, etc. because not only was I trained in picking up these things, but it's part of my job.... I do not expect everybody to do the same, nor do I think of anybody any less because they do or do not.

For the most part, I created this thread to get feedback from others on what they thought of these episodes..... whether they like them, hate them or simply don't care, so be it.... I just got the ball rolling by explaining my position.
 
...but if the majority of the average audience doesn't care, then the few that do doesn't matter. Those in charge have reached their targeted audience.

Funny, I thought the targeted audience started to drop off which is why they brought in Seven.... but anyways, I'm not here to stand on a soap box to claim that you or anybody else is wrong for liking the episodes.... I was asking if anybody else noticed these things and if these things or other things detracted their liking of these episodes.

Besides that, I was also voicing my opinion on why I didn't like the episodes and giving examples as to why.... I'm not in here to try and fit into the popular crowd and kiss arse..... if the majority of the average audience doesn't care, so be it.... I do and I explained why I do.... which has more to do with the production of the episodes more then the story itself.

imo, the story and episodes could have been pretty impressive, but they dropped the ball on many of the finer details which give the overall story an impression of being quite amateur.

And as a reminder, I am noting "My Opinion" ~ I have yet to claim something as absolute fact which all should follow or face my wrath. ;)

I statement like Tomalok301: "It was this episode that got me interested in WWII History, so I think it did something right." and those like him is going to mean more and have more impact on TPTB than one persons complaint about uniforms & lack of gun recoil. Like I said, it's not a documentary so they aren't going to care.
Like I said, to each their own.... but just because my view doesn't align to the popular opinion, doesn't mean I should some how feel bad about expressing my honest opinion about these episodes and explain why, nor will I stop expressing my honest opinion any time soon.... be that this subject or any others that come along.

People watch these shows for many different reasons.... for me, due to my past education, experiences and such, these sort of things are what I notice and these are the things that can add to a story, or ruin it altogether. Because I've been doing this sort of thing for so long now, it's something I can't simply turn off.... these things shine like a big red beacon to me when I see them.... where I suspect most either wouldn't pick up on them (as they're focusing on other things in the story/show).

I notice the subtle things in advertisements, commercials, tv shows, movies, etc. because not only was I trained in picking up these things, but it's part of my job.... I do not expect everybody to do the same, nor do I think of anybody any less because they do or do not.

For the most part, I created this thread to get feedback from others on what they thought of these episodes..... whether they like them, hate them or simply don't care, so be it.... I just got the ball rolling by explaining my position.
Sorry but I think you're getting a little to carried away.
 
Funny, I thought the targeted audience started to drop off which is why they brought in Seven.... but anyways, I'm not here to stand on a soap box to claim that you or anybody else is wrong for liking the episodes.... I was asking if anybody else noticed these things and if these things or other things detracted their liking of these episodes.

Voyagers ratings started with a 13 share with the first episode only to steadily fall to the 3 share level buy mid second season.

Voyagers ratings

The producers thought the solution to the ratings problems were to put modern pop culture [Predator aliens err Hirogen] into the story lines and even bigger breasted women. ;)

There are a few notable exceptions like with Scorpion that reached double digits and ironically IMHO that's because the story got original and exciting.
 
Funny, I thought the targeted audience started to drop off which is why they brought in Seven.... but anyways, I'm not here to stand on a soap box to claim that you or anybody else is wrong for liking the episodes.... I was asking if anybody else noticed these things and if these things or other things detracted their liking of these episodes.

Voyagers ratings started with a 13 share with the first episode only to steadily fall to the 3 share level buy mid second season.

Voyagers ratings

The producers thought the solution to the ratings problems were to put modern pop culture [Predator aliens err Hirogen] into the story lines and even bigger breasted women. ;)

There are a few notable exceptions like with Scorpion that reached double digits and ironically IMHO that's because the story got original and exciting.
Paramount wanted ratings equal to what TNG got, however Voyager running for a full seven years shows the ratings held steady enough. The soultion to the rating issue wasn't the Hirogen but rather the Borg which proved a boost in viewership every episode they showed up in to spite the online back lash they get now.

Many of the ratings issues Voyager had was due to the audience being divided because DS9 & Voy in many major cities ran side by side on totally different networks, causing the audience to choose only one. In many major cities Voy. was allso never aired, a a portion of the audience never saw it during it's original run.
 
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