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The internet and the lack of boundaries

Mr Silver

Commodore
Newbie
This is something i've always kind of noticed. But before we get into that, let me start of by saying that I am posting this here because I believe TrekBBS, out of all place I visit on the internet, to be full of the most moral, intelligent and creative people. Now, excuse the ass kissing of that ;) but honestly, thats the way I see it and I believe that we can all approach this subject in a most intellectual and in-depth.

Its given that internet and its anonymous nature leads to a breakdown in the natural social barriers that we create for ourselves, but can this also crossover into physical life? I've seen this kind of stuff happen a lot, even to myself. I have a tendancy to occasionly use "internet expressions" when talking to people and in the cases of some of my friends, we've talked more over the internet than in person, despite having a really good physical relationship. Now I know you might be thinking that this is "one of those" about how the internet is taking over our lives, but its more than that and I'll get to that in a bit (for the record, I've accepted that the internet is a big part of my life and I think everyone else should as well, its made life more accessible and convenient and does make the World a better place, more often than not)

You can really get to know a person, you can consider them a really close friend, a lover, etc. However, I feel that you can never "fully" know somebody, because as i've mentioned we all restrain ourselves for the benefit of society. People often have stuff they hide, people you might consider among the nicest and most upstanding you've ever known, could have some really dark and morbid secrets. In recent research prompted by trying to understand some problems I am having, I started to realise that many things that you consider wrong about yourself are very common and part of being human. Now, its given that we all have dark and intrusive thoughts from time to time, but the difference between "being human" and a psycho is whether we carry them out or dismiss them as part of life.

I'm in my 20's and like many people, regret some things that have happened in the past (nothing serious just stuff that you think back on ask "why did I do that?" or "what was I thinking?"), but what I have to consider is they happened when I was a child, I didn't know any better and it was part of growing up, they make me feel guilty and ashamed from time to time, but you can't dwell on it. The only thing you can do is take onboard you made mistakes and live by example, be as good a person as you can. Trial and error is the very foundation of humanity, people rarely get things right first time. Anyway i'm losing the point of my discussion, i'm sidetracking to help convey my point, but I have a tendancy to add too much detail!

I've seen and read some pretty anti-social stuff on the internet that has disgusted and upset me (and i'm not a overly emotional or sensitive person), but I feel its my duty to give examples of what I consider lack of boundaries from average people


  • On a message board I came across a topic where people were talking about their sexual experiences growing up. Most people discussed normal development, usual kind of stuff, but some there went too far. One man even wrote what I would class as an erotic story about his experiences as a child with another child (something that particulary affected me from a disgusted pov) and not one post in that topic questioned his decision to write what he did, nobody disagreed with him and in fact others, perhaps inspired, took it upon themselves to write in the same style.
  • Some of the people on 4Chan go really too far, although I am not a member of that community, I am often made aware of their latest memes (many of which are pretty funny). However, society seems to be lost there and people praise that as "part of the charm", to an extent I would agree its a good idea, however it really just does go too far. The site is lightly moderated and many of the users are minors, trading pornography with other minors, or worse, adult's who are aware of their age. I'm not going to argue the morals of the site, but I am concerned that a growing number of teenagers are turning into extremely rude and sarcastic adults with no idea about how respect works, due to communities based on these traits.
  • I'm a man and I occasionly watch pornography, good pornography from my perspective (I watch it as an aid, not as an interest, if you understand what I'm getting at), that doesn't show too much disrespect and animalisation of women (otherwise it turns me off), however I am particulary disgusted with so called "casting couch" pornography, where porn actresses are portrayed as being 18, 19 years old and naive. The male leads in the movies, often operate the camera too and come across as pretty perverse. They get all high pitched and breathe heavily, whilst talking dirty in a tone that you would use to talk to someone who is overly sensitive (its horrible and I have little respect for anyone who is into this).
I haven't got many other examples that I care to share, however you get my drift. I'm not a "buzz killer", I enjoy messing about and occasionly being irresponsible as the next 20-something, but I have a certain level of moral responsibility and it particulary unnerves me when friends and people I know start to get influenced by internet "trash culture". I believe its very possible that the internet can bring the worst parts of people to the surface and if they aren't very strong willed, influence their actions.

Does anyone get any of the points I've made and do you have any suggestions or ideas about how one might survive a society dominated by lapsed internet culturalists with no morals or respect?!
 
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Yikes!

iBender shouldn't be allowed on the internet... It's too free and nobody wants to hear what I've got to say, almost makes me want to kick out and grab a guitar and let rip and try f**k the world. :)
 
Yikes!

iBender shouldn't be allowed on the internet... It's too free and nobody wants to hear what I've got to say, almost makes me want to kick out and grab a guitar and let rip and try f**k the world. :)

Randomness aside... I'm all for free speech, I just think we need encourage morals more on the internet, so things like the examples I've written about don't spill over into real life.
 
People who are assholes in real life will be assholes on the internet. People who are polite in real life will be polite on the internet. The internet changing people's behavior is an illusion. The internet is nothing but an outlet. It is still up to the individual how they act.
 
More or less. Antisocial people feel more comfortable on the internet because it's a less intense personal interaction. The problem is this doesn't cure their antisocial tendencies. If anything, they'll actually stand out more. That's the reason for boundary crossings. You could have these things in real life, just the odds of getting the right group of people together to see what you see on the internet is rare.
 
Yikes!

iBender shouldn't be allowed on the internet... It's too free and nobody wants to hear what I've got to say, almost makes me want to kick out and grab a guitar and let rip and try f**k the world. :)

Randomness aside... I'm all for free speech, I just think we need encourage morals more on the internet, so things like the examples I've written about don't spill over into real life.
It is an outlet, it's is a communication network, it is free and un-lawed except for the consequence of banning and calling the Police with IP addresses. 'I guess.' - That Randomness might be down to my reference to this Futurama episode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_Should_Not_Be_Allowed_on_TV, and my posts on this forum. - & heck, some posts on some other forums too...
 
More or less. Antisocial people feel more comfortable on the internet because it's a less intense personal interaction. The problem is this doesn't cure their antisocial tendencies. If anything, they'll actually stand out more. That's the reason for boundary crossings. You could have these things in real life, just the odds of getting the right group of people together to see what you see on the internet is rare.

I see your point and I'd like to add that I think in some cases (particulary with 4Chan) that the internet is an influential factor in "making" people assholes. Teenagers in particular are quick to pick up on fads and trends as its part of them ironing out their identity. But what if all they are surrounded with is anti social? Despite being initially well behaved, good achievers and friendly as a result of the internet's influence in adulthood they are the complete opposite.

Does this not seem like a fair assesment of the internet's potential to influence?
 
I think I would agree with you on most of those points, Captain M. I'm not too sure whether it's specific to the internet though, and not just a case of normal person+ anonymity=complete dickweed. certainly an interesting post! thanks!
 
This is something i've always kind of noticed. But before we get into that, let me start of by saying that I am posting this here because I believe TrekBBS, out of all place I visit on the internet, to be full of the most moralistic, intelligent and creative people.
Not to be anal about it, but “moral” is what I think you mean. “Moralistic” is generally not a nice thing to call someone.
Some of the people on 4Chan go really too far, although I am not a member of that community, I am often made aware of their latest memes (many of which are pretty funny). However, society seems to be lost there and people praise that as “part of the charm”, to an extent I would agree its a good idea, however it really just does go too far. The site is lightly moderated and many of the users are minors, trading pornography with other minors, or worse, adults who are aware of their age. I'm not going to argue the morals of the site, but I am concerned that a growing number of teenagers are turning into extremely rude and sarcastic adults with no idea about how respect works, due to communities based on these traits.
Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but I believe the great majority of today’s adolescents will turn out okay despite the internet — just as they did in spite of rock ’n’ roll, horror comic books, dime novels, and Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang.
]I'm a man and I occasionly watch pornography, good pornography that doesn't show too much disrespect and animalisation of women (otherwise it turns me off), however I am particulary disgusted with so called “casting couch” pornography, where porn actresses are portrayed as being 18, 19 years old and naive.
Fine. You don’t like that kind of porn? Don’t watch it. Only watch “good” porn, since you seem to know exactly what that is.
 
Does anyone get any of the points I've made and do you have any suggestions or ideas about how one might survive a society dominated by lapsed internet culturalists with no morals or respect?!

Well, I would hope that we can separate our "internet face" from our public face the same way we separate our private face from our public face. I do agree that the immediacy and (illusion) of anonymity can cause people to give into, let's cal them "curiosities," more readily than they would otherwise. In a person prone to compulsive or addictive behaviour this could be destructive.

How to survive? Remember to maintain a life that is outside the internet I think, is the best policy. Make that effort to socialise even if it's only every other week as a reminder that there are people who aren't online!

People who are assholes in real life will be assholes on the internet. People who are polite in real life will be polite on the internet. The internet changing people's behavior is an illusion. The internet is nothing but an outlet. It is still up to the individual how they act.

I don't think I entirely agree. Using a handle can create a cushion of anonymity that makes you feel like you have license to act in ways you wouldn't publicly. I know when I started out on message boards it was with an attitude that the people on the other end weren't "real" and I had some rather trollish behaviour that I'm not proud of.

Deciding to leave handles behind and use my real name helped bring my internet persona more in line with my real life one, but even then the fact that we can edit and revise our thoughts online can distort the image of how we are. I've been on message boards without an edit function to enforce more thoughtful posting and I can definitely see the positive aspect of that.

I regularly participate in a chat room on a dating site and I'm a lot more flirty in text than in a Skype call or in-person. Even using my real name, typing something does bring out a bit more bravado.

I'm not too sure whether it's specific to the internet though, and not just a case of normal person+ anonymity=complete dickweed.

Yeah, I think that's very true and something I've felt/done myself as noted earlier. I do think that how one acts in public isn't quite the same - unless you have some kind of mental condition where you're unable to emphathise with other people.
 
Captain M said:
One man even wrote what I would class as an erotic story about his experiences as a child with another child

In fairness, you realize this is actually reasonably normal. Not the talking about it part, which I'll grant is off-putting to hear, but the actual practice. Kids have always played doctor.

Sexualizing it in adulthood might be problematic, but I'd probably have to see exactly what was written, which I have no desire to do.

I'm a man and I occasionly watch pornography, good pornography that doesn't show too much disrespect and animalisation of women (otherwise it turns me off), however I am particulary disgusted with so called "casting couch" pornography, where porn actresses are portrayed as being 18, 19 years old and naive. The male leads in the movies, often operate the camera too and come across as pretty perverse. They get all high pitched and breathe heavily, whilst talking dirty in a tone that you would use to talk to someone who is overly sensitive (its horrible and I have little respect for anyone who is into this).
So, which is worse, aficionado? Backroom Casting Couch or Net Video Girls: U-DECIDE.

Easily Backroom. Net Video has more obvious "this is fake" winks, for example "convincing" women to have sex in a manner that would get you maced ten seconds in, and casting actual semi-famous (and much beloved and missed) actresses like Taylor Bow, whereas Backroom often comes across as just plain mean, and the creator of the series is far too interested in establishing verisimilitude.
 
Not to be anal about it, but “moral” is what I think you mean. “Moralistic” is generally not a nice thing to call someone.

Fixed, my apologies since this was written in the early hours where I'm located.

Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but I believe the great majority of today’s adolescents will turn out okay despite the internet — just as they did in spite of rock ’n’ roll, horror comic books, dime novels, and Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang.
Perhaps they will, but I feel there is a real potential threat lurking from internet culture and its impact on society. I know that I am confident enough about myself, to be able to seperate the internet and real life, whilst maintaining who I am online and offline. I don't use the internet as a outlet to experiment with antisocial behaviour and none of what happens on the internet for me, spills into real life. The same cannot be said for some other people. I know several people who are clearly influenced way too much by internet culture and are severley lacking in social skills as a result.

Fine. You don’t like that kind of porn? Don’t watch it. Only watch “good” porn, since you seem to know exactly what that is.
Fixed also, I mean "good" from my perspective as in porn that is far from the "bad stuff" you hear about on shows or in books promoting the impact that pornography has on destroying normal sexual behaviour.

Just out of curiosity, it seems as if you have a disliking for pornography, or at the very least see it as all being bad. Care to elaborate? Or were you just commenting on my percieved "arrogance" to assume that my tastes are the right tastes?
 
This is something i've always kind of noticed. But before we get into that, let me start of by saying that I am posting this here because I believe TrekBBS, out of all place I visit on the internet, to be full of the most moral, intelligent and creative people.

I got this far and started laughing; I don't know whether it says more about this board, or the internet in general! :D

Anyway, people generally love being free of restraint, once you give them social permission to do so. The internet certainly enables this for a variety of reasons. What you get is people exploring aspects of their personality they wouldn't normally do (whether that's a good or bad thing is very a wide-ranging question; one I'm too lazy to address fully here).

Self-imposed/voluntary restraint is a remarkably rare thing for most people, especially once you strip out the "shy" contingent from the equation as they are more appropriately grouped with those who haven't felt like they've been given sufficient permission to lose the socially-imposed restraints yet.

Frankly, a lot of conversations across the internet (and some of the social-networking that goes hand in hand with that) simply remind me that most people have not yet developed endogenous (ie. not socially-imposed) protective boundaries.
 
. . . Net Video has more obvious "this is fake" winks, for example "convincing" women to have sex in a manner that would get you maced ten seconds in, and casting actual semi-famous (and much beloved and missed) actresses like Taylor Bow. . .
Who? :confused:
. . . whereas Backroom often comes across as just plain mean, and the creator of the series is far too interested in establishing verisimilitude.
As long as it's play-acting by consenting adult performers, what difference does it make whether it looks "real" or it's self-consciously fake? It's all fantasy. (I'm not familiar with the content of either site you mentioned.)

. . . Just out of curiosity, it seems as if you have a disliking for pornography, or at the very least see it as all being bad. Care to elaborate?
I dislike most pornography, but my reasons are esthetic, not moral. Most of the online stuff is just unappealing and un-arousing. And the amateur porn is downright ugly.

I mean, let's face it -- it looks ridiculous to see people actually fucking. Especially if they're your parents. :p
 
The more introverted/shy people in real life, tend to become less introverted online. As that type of personality tends to have more difficulty engaging socially in real life.
 
I'm not sure if some of your points have anything to do with the "lack of boundaries." But I can at least relate when you said you had some intrusive thoughts that caused you some guilt and shame, which happened when I suffered from anxiety/depression years ago.

My observation (although it has little to do with the Internet and more to do with everyday things) is that we're becoming a culture of TMI (too much information). I realize it's quite easy to lose inhibitions and post something you wouldn't normally say out loud or discuss in a casual conversation with people (like what type/color of underwear you're wearing). :lol: But that's different. I'm talking about everyday cell phone conversations that are totally pointless, unnecessary, and inappropriate.

One time I was at Starbucks inside of a Target store, and I overheard a middle-aged man on his cell phone talking to someone about his health. "I've been having some issues lately. I've been burping a lot. Burp, burp, burp. It's like I got bubbles inside my stomach." Although there was nothing remotely graphic about his dialogue, I felt it was totally unnecessary to talk about something so personal and loud enough to be heard by others.

For a minute, I was tempted to walk up to him and say, "Excuse me, sir. I couldn't help hearing what you just said. I had a co-worker with the exact same symptoms as you, and he died of stomach cancer months later." :borg: That would've been a terrible thing to say, so I didn't say it, but the prospect of scaring him with something so morbid would've probably shut him up or prompted him to be a bit more discreet.
 
I think with mobile phones sometimes people forget they aren't at home. You see people being served at checkouts, chatting away on their mobile phone. With the poor cashir, That'll be "Thirty pounds ten please, " being almost ignored as they continue their phone conversation.
 
do you have any suggestions or ideas about how one might survive a society dominated by lapsed internet culturalists with no morals or respect?!

You control what media you expose your mind to. Be selective. Pick and choose. Everything that you expose yourself to leaves an impression on your mind. Why then would you feed it garbage.

People like to complain about other people's ways of life, yet they never realise that they themselves have the ability to remove themselves from other people's unpleasantnesses.
 
However, society seems to be lost there and people praise that as "part of the charm", to an extent I would agree its a good idea, however it really just does go too far. The site is lightly moderated and many of the users are minors, trading pornography with other minors, or worse, adult's who are aware of their age.

4chan is anonymous. Most people there don't have online screen handles so how would you even know if many of the users are minors or not.
 
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