The idea of a Dominion War

[Xerxes1979]

ah, but here's a question xerxes: How does self-replicating anything not run into entropy and the law of conservation of mass?

I don't think that issue would arise during the lifetime of any given space faring civilization. Entropy didn't do in the Iconians, Dysonsphere builders or Tkon Empire.

 

[Photon]

I appreciate DS9 for broaching the war subject and not coming down on either side.

Either side of what?

Pro/anti war
hawk/dove

 

[Weyoun96]

I have been a bit confused on how the war actually broke out, I think it was something like the USS Odyssey (I saw clips on the internet but not the full episode) went into the Gama Quadrant but got ambushed by Jem’Hadar and they found their way into the wormhole. I don’t know exactly but maybe if someone explained it? I also was thinking, not just the Dominion, but the Romulan, Cardassian and probably a few more I could name all wanted war with the Federation, but like Spock said in movie six,
“Starfleet’s mission has always been one of peace”.
And now thieve been in so many wars, so many battles, it’s like their prime directive has gone down the waste extractor. But on the other hand, their role is to protect and if that means blowing up a few Jem’Hadar to get it then maybe that’s not such a bad thing.

 

[Navaros]

Regarding the very notion of the Dominion War, did you support it?

I've heard some people say it was anti-Roddenberry in nature

Absolutely I support the Dominion War. The Dominion War is without question the very best thing that has ever happened in the Trek franchise. It is by and large why DS9 is by far the best Trek show (although that is not the only reason) and way better than any of the Trek movies.

Yes it is anti-Roddenberry, but I say: a> who cares?; and b> thank God for that! Trek has always been at its best when it was anti-Roddenberry. That is why they completely revamped the whole Trek concept after "The Cage"; because Roddenberry himself did not make good Trek. Rather, Trek is at its best when other men modify (and/or discard) Roddenberry's ideas into something good.

 

[Withers]

I loved the War. I thought it brought about the best moments in Star Trek history, gave us some of the most memorable episodes, and managed to remind us that sci-fi action doesn't have to be about just giant fleet battles and massive explosions but how characters actually react to the realities of war. As to the "It's antithetical to Gene Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek" bit... I'm with the group that says "who cares?" Star Trek has, over the years, detailed our evolution as a species technologically, socially, and maybe most importantly morally.

Gene Roddenberry's universe might have been a Utopia... but that doesn't mean his humans were by any means perfect. McCoy was practically a speciest/racist, Kirk was a womanizer (to say the last), and for a Federation essentially at peace that Enterprise of his played fast and lose with the lives of crew members (Red shirt joke). So yeah, in my opinion, DS9 just continued that trend and evolved the show.

The only thing I didn't like the creators didn't like either (according to what I've read on Memory Alpha). I didn't like the fact that if the events of "Way of the Warrior" had happened differently (i.e. if the Federation had just let the Klingons take over Cardassia) the war wouldn't have happened the way it did or potentially at all. The Klingons never mention it either. They mend the Klingon/Federation rift lickedy split and move on without any words about it. I don't know if I dislike that it happened that way or that it was never addressed or both but that's my only beef with the Dominion War Arc.

Other than that I think it was the smartest, boldest move they could've done. If Voyager had done a similar style serialization maybe it wouldn't have sucked quite so hard. (Yeah... I went there.)


-Withers-​

 

[Navaros]

I have been a bit confused on how the war actually broke out, I think it was something like the USS Odyssey (I saw clips on the internet but not the full episode) went into the Gama Quadrant but got ambushed by Jem’Hadar and they found their way into the wormhole. I don’t know exactly but maybe if someone explained it?

That started conflict and the Dominion warned the Feds to stay out of the GQ. But the Feds continued to instigate the Dominion for a couple of years before the full war started by not heeding the warning.

What really started the war, though, was the Sisko mining the wormhole so Dominion ships could not come through and hang out in front of Cardassia.

 

[TheGodBen]

I have been a bit confused on how the war actually broke out, I think it was something like the USS Odyssey (I saw clips on the internet but not the full episode) went into the Gama Quadrant but got ambushed by Jem’Hadar and they found their way into the wormhole. I don’t know exactly but maybe if someone explained it?

That wasn't the beginning of the war, that was the official first contact between the Federation and the Dominion. The Dominion already knew of the Federation before making contact and were biding their time, and the Federation had heard rumours of a powerful empire called the Dominion months in advance of the Odyssey incident. The cause of the war is hard to explain because there was three years of political manoeuvrings between first contact and the official beginning of hostilities, but Memory Alpha has an article explaining the Federation-Dominion Cold War if you want to learn more.

But at its most basic level the Dominion War was caused by the fact that the Dominion was an anti-Federation, a union of worlds dominated by a powerful military, and they feared what the Federation represented so they tried to destroy it. Centuries before, the Changeling race lived throughout the Gamma Quadrant and many of the races feared them for being different, and because their power to change form was considered a threat. They were persecuted and often murdered, and so they fled into hiding and developed a deep distrust of "solids". They used their abilities to clone a warrior race, the Jem'Hadar, and they used them as an army to conquer and bring order to a large section of the Gamma Quadrant. The irony here was that the Dominion became what they were trying to protect themselves from, but rather than solids persecuting Changelings it was now the Changelings who were persecuting the solids. The Changelings viewed all solid races as a threat, and even though the Federation was peaceful and would not have been a threat to them, the Changelings only saw the Federation as another race of solids and attempted to control them.

The second irony of this situation is that the Federation would have been welcoming of the Changelings and would not have persecuted them but, due to Dominion aggression against them, the Federation turned on their values and condoned genocide (and possibly even committed it) through infecting the Changelings with a disease. That's one of the things I enjoy about the Dominion war, it has a theme about how violence begets violence which, in turn, begets further violence. I'm not even sure if it was a conscious decision by the writers, but it was there.

 

[Arix]

[RANT]
It wasn't just the break-up. It was her attitude throughout Unjoined.

It's like: "How dare Bashir question my decision?"

Indeed, when she begins to realize that he may have been right, we get the line: Why did he have to be right so ------ often?

She gives him the cold shouldier...and in the end, when Julian expresses his fear that she's viewing him as less than important to her...what does she do?

She brings up his infatuation with Jadzia. Effectively, she dodges the concerns--and shoves the blame on him.

And the reasoning that "We came together, not knowing if we'd even live past the first day, and none of that bodes well for a stable relationship", is completely false.

To the contrary, the idea of "living each day as if it were your last"--taking nothing for granted--THAT is an encouragement of a relationship, not a discouragement.
[/RANT]

Well... I uh, will leave you to your strong opinions regarding Ezri... I agree with you, to an extent, but I think the decision to make her change to the Command track was a good one, and I personally thought it was a nice character progression. I think they did mess up her relationship with Julian, but I can overlook that in the grand scheme of things.

I read a lot of the relaunch novels and I'd say the whole "Bajor and the Federation" plot was very DS9 and would have formed a good part of a season 8. The Mission Gamma thing way VERY up and down, and all the Andorian soap opera stuff was really tedious to trudge through.

The novels all suffer way, way too much these days from reintroducing old characters from earlier episodes, even ones with really tiny roles. The Admiral did not need to be the baby from "Friday's Child" for example, its just fanwank. Also the main protagonists were, to avoid spoilers, a bit of the same.

I enjoy the DS9 relaunch novels more than any other Trek novels (and have read it, in its entirety, twice so far). I didn't mind the introduction of the Andorians, and I actually like all of the new characters they introduced - I feel like all of them just... fit, with DS9.

As for the issue of reintroducing old characters. I LOVE that. There are so many one-off characters in Star Trek - I personally don't see the point in always creating a new character, when there are so many others who could be used. And half the time, I don't even realise they're from an episode anyway! When I do, I like the continuity - it makes it feel like this a real universe, where people live, and where you can run into someone you 'met' 10 years ago.

Akaar has been used in numerous novels, off the top of my head, I'm sure he was in the DS9 relaunch, Titan, and I think a Lost Era novel as well... When he first showed up in DS9, I didn't know he was the baby from an episode of TOS! Once I realised, I didn't have a problem with it - quite the opposite in fact.

Bringing Ro Laren in was another fantastic move IMO. And I think all the others... Vaughn, Prynn, Shar, Treir, etc are new characters.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

I might be in the minority here, but I think it should have been longer. An eighth season, at the very least.

That, way, they would have felt less of a need to rush any endings, the threat of the Breen could have been emphasized better, there would have been more chances for "stand-alones", without detracting from the war--AND (my personal favorite), we'd see more Ezri, without any other characters being shoved aside.

Everyone would win. (almost anyone, anyway....)

So why did they have to end on seven seasons?

it probably became too difficult for the actors? 7 years is a long time to be doing one character.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

The idea that there is no money in the 24th century never made sense.

Goods/services may be less scarce with replicators, but there still needs to be power to operate the replicators, and this is not unlimited. Also, money exists as a medium of exchange, since barter is less efficient than money.

It would have been interesting to flesh the idea out more, but I doubt the writers could, since a society with no money would be way beyond our economic understanding.

No, power is pretty much unlimited in the 24th century. The infrastructure is based on fusion and anti-matter. Barring the disappearence of hydrogen from the universe no scarcity will ever exist.

Lets say you have a solar powered self replicating satellite, if it collects energy and material feedstock then duplicates itself the output will massively increase following an exponential function in a short amount time. Only realestate and services are constrained.

Great post!

Even something like real estate would change so much. Just look at how tall buildings are becoming now.

Services? Use an android or hologram.

 

[Rush Limborg]

[RANT]
It wasn't just the break-up. It was her attitude throughout Unjoined.

It's like: "How dare Bashir question my decision?"

Indeed, when she begins to realize that he may have been right, we get the line: Why did he have to be right so ------ often?

She gives him the cold shouldier...and in the end, when Julian expresses his fear that she's viewing him as less than important to her...what does she do?

She brings up his infatuation with Jadzia. Effectively, she dodges the concerns--and shoves the blame on him.

And the reasoning that "We came together, not knowing if we'd even live past the first day, and none of that bodes well for a stable relationship", is completely false.

To the contrary, the idea of "living each day as if it were your last"--taking nothing for granted--THAT is an encouragement of a relationship, not a discouragement.
[/RANT]

Well... I uh, will leave you to your strong opinions regarding Ezri... I agree with you, to an extent, but I think the decision to make her change to the Command track was a good one, and I personally thought it was a nice character progression. I think they did mess up her relationship with Julian, but I can overlook that in the grand scheme of things.

Well, I DO love the idea of her growing into a leader. I like the decision--or at least, I'm okay with it.

(But there's something to be said about the fact that Troi got her Commander promotion, and was still a counselor. And indeed, Ezri's a DANG good counselor. So...I would have preferred that she goes to command track, gets the experience, etc.--but I wouldn't have had her give up her position as counselor. Until, of course, she makes Captain. But that's just me.)