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The Ice Cave Coincidence

From Memory Alpha:

"According to writer Roberto Orci, the part of the mind meld sequence in which Prime Spock sees the destruction of Vulcan was meant to be "as impressionistic for a general audience." The idea was that Spock saw the planet's destruction through "a telescope or some other type of measuring device," but showing it that way on-screen "isn't very cinematic." However, Orci himself prefers to think of Delta Vega as being in close orbit of Vulcan."

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Delta_Vega_(Vulcan_system)
 
why wasn't it in the vulcan sky.... ever?
i like the idea of a cinematic device and, frankly, i wasn't considering the fact that the clip of him viewing vulcan imploding was during the mind-meld. taking that into account really does open up a whole lot of possibilities for symbolism/interpretation. but, why would it have been so bad to show him viewing it through a telescope? anyone who's used one of those knows they can be very dramatic and interesting.
ugh, filmmakers and their dramatism. :p
 
One of the script reviews for Star Trek 2009 talked about a cut (or unfilmed) snatch of dialog that made the coincidental meeting between Kirk and Spock Prime seem more, um, logical. Does anyone know what that line or lines might have said?

Thanks!

There is nothing that could have been said to make this scene more logical. :)

Nu Spock could have put Kirk in the brig, yet he decides to illogically maroon him on a planet close to a Starfleet outpost (which I can at least live with because he didn't want him to freeze to death). However, Nero could have marooned Spock anywhere, but he ends up relatively in the same area. This is only one example of "well, wasn't that convenient".

Spock knew that there was a Starfleet outpost a short distance away. Yet he was in the cave, twiddling his thumbs and waiting for Kirk to arrive in order to save him from the evil red monster in the white frozen wasteland and to later mind meld with him to explain a ridiculous story of red goo that can absorb a supernova, after which a black hole is created that miraculously transports the ships to the past. U-huh. Great writing. Ugh.
 
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Spock only got there slightly ahead of Kirk; after seeing his planet blown to smithereens and every living thing on it die, it wouldn't surprise me if he delayed heading on out to the Federation outpost and decided to mull things over by the fire alone for a while.

In addition, there was absolutely nothing for Spock to do in this timeline at that moment. How is he going to explain to ordindary crew at the station what his situation is? They'd think he were nuts. So, no rush on heading out. He'd get hungry soon enough.

And as I already said on the front page of this topic, Nero plainly said he wanted Spock to live and suffer like he himself had over the destruction of Romulus. That is the reason he put Spock down within walking distance of the Federation outpost; Nero wants him to live long and suffer.
 
I've never had a problem with it.

Nero wanted Spock to watch Vulcan destroyed and dumped Spock off on Delta Vega on his way out of the Vulcan system. Nero wanted Spock to live and suffer as he himself had, so Nero put him walking distance from a Federation outpost.

Quinto/Spock dumped Kirk out on Delta Vega on their way out of the Vulcan system, too. Both the Narada and Enterprise were on course for Earth out of there. Quinto/Spock intended for Kirk also to walk to the Federation outpost.

Any time somebody's caught on a barren planet, they head for what looks like shelter, which the caves would have been.

No problem. I don't get why people think it is.

No way. Spock said the outpost was 20 kilometers away. That means that in an area of over 1200 square kilometers, Kirk just happened to run into Spock at the exact moment he needed to be rescued. Imagine you're dropped within 20 kilometers of Manhatten. How likely are you to run into someone you need to meet who was also dropped within 20 kilometers? Consider how many people get lost and die in the mountains or desert and they're only a few miles from their car. And how long it takes rescuers to find them.

No, that was a huge and unlikely coincidence.

Every STAR TREK movies has coincidence...for example. Think of ALL the planets that the Federation has in its territory..and yet, they just HAPPEN to test the GENESIS device on...roll the drums..the very world, even if mistakingly, Khan was on???

And wasn't it just lucky that Spock found away to re-energize the cystrals in The Voyage Home, when just seconds before, Scotty said it couldnt be done?

coincidence, in XIs case, is a nod to the fans of TREK..and it should be treated that way..IMO

Rob
 
It's an unlikely concidence made more so by the fact that it wasn't a very good idea to begin with. How do you get Spock and Kirk and Scotty to get together? Lets abandon them all on the same planet and let them find each other within a short walking distance.

Also if emo Spock didn't want Kirk to die he sure as hell wasn't thinking about the native life down there on the planet that wanted to eat Kirk.
 
We don't know how long Kirk was walking before he was chased by the monster. We know why Spock was marooned there and we should assume that he found out about the Starfleet facility when he mind melded with Kirk (who was heading there in the first place). I really don't see why people are getting so uptight about it.
 
I;m sure there was an outpost in DV in prime universe as well. I dont think a mindmeld would have told him any different. Its just a poorly written piece of plot. Spock would have had enough time to get to the outpost. It was quite a while between the time the Feds recieve the distress call, the arrival, the platform fight, and the marooning.

Every movie had a porly written piece than can be analyized over and over. I just expected something a little smarter from the people that put out such real life viral campaign games as the "lost romulan device" that had everyone scratching their heads.
 
Well, if the entire mass of the planet Earth were converted to a black hole, the Moon would continue to orbit the black hole just the same way it does the Earth. (Technically, they orbit around a mutual center of mass, but it's fine for this discussion to assume the Moon orbits the Earth.) A black hole doesn't change the mass of the objects that make it up, it just squeezes all that matter in so densely, that the surface gravity is within the Schwarzschild radius for that mass.

So ... assuming Red Matter doesn't conjure up extra mass from other universes, the mass of Vulcan would remain unchanged and any nearby bodies would continue with minimal gravitational disturbance. The emissions of x-rays, on the other hand, and high-energy particles would likely ruin the day for anyone unfortunate enough to be within viewing distance.

thank you. this makes a lot of sense. so, they did nothing to tune it at all, it just sucked the matter immediately surrounding. is this like having a limited fuel supply? and after that is exhausted it becomes somewhat inert?

A common misconception about Black Holes is that they "suck" in everything that gets near them. This is not the case. A Black hole of Earth-like mass would have no more of a gravitational pull than the Earth. If you were to travel beyond the event horizon, you will get stuck, but maintaining a stable orbit is quite possible and is a phenomenon seen throughout the galaxy.

In the case of Vulcan, the black hole didn't "suck" the planet in. The red matter caused Vulcan's mass to collapse on itself, forming a black hole. In short, Vulcan became a black hole of the same mass.

why wasn't it in the vulcan sky.... ever?

A Large planetary body was seen in Vulcan's sky in the original cut of TMP. In TOS Spock remarked once that Vulcan has no moon, which is technically correct if Vulcan is part of a double-planet system like Romulus and Remus were. This large planetary body is also spoken of extensively in the novel "Spock's World" and is called T'Kut IIRC. Although novels are non-canon, the writers may have used it as a reference. It would have been nice if it were seen in the sky of Vulcan in the new movie, as it would settle the debate.

Speaking of the sky of Vulcan, isn't it supposed to be red? I swear it was blue in the new movie. That's my only nit-pick, but it's not important. :shifty:

That's my take on it too, that the timeline is somewhat "rubber-bandy" in that you can distort it some but it will try its best to return to the original shape... at least inthis trekverse anyway.

The Trek universe has used this before. Recall Yesterday's Enterprise when the timeline was chaged, Guinan just knew it was wrong even though she couldn't explain it. In an episode of Enterprise or Voyager I seem to recall someone speaking of the ebb and flow of time and that things will tend to correct themselves over time. It's like a river, that will always try to flow the same way; even if it's diverted for awhile it will eventually get back on track. The 29th century fleet used a method to scan for disruptions in that flow. I even seem to recall the Guardian of Forever speaking of something like this.

It's not "destiny" it's just a property of temporal physics that we don't quite understand yet...:p
 
I;m sure there was an outpost in DV in prime universe as well.

Uh, yeah, it was an unmanned mining station that ore ships visit once every 20 years or so ... and it was years or more away from anywhere at decent sublight speeds.

If they really wanted to reference WHERE NO MAN ..., maybe DV in this retroverse is where Kirk should have met Gary Mitchell.
 
Delta Vega is almost on the edge of the galaxy near the Galactic Barrier, as shown and described in decent detail in "WNMHGB" all the way back in 1965/66. Vulcan is less than twenty light years from Earth and neither planet is on the galactic edge.

So anyone...Orci or otherwise...who thinks the planets are practically next-door to one another is just dead wrong.
 
Delta Vega is almost on the edge of the galaxy near the Galactic Barrier, as shown and described in decent detail in "WNMHGB" all the way back in 1965/66. Vulcan is less than twenty light years from Earth and neither planet is on the galactic edge.

So anyone...Orci or otherwise...who thinks the planets are practically next-door to one another is just dead wrong.

I think this DV business is more proof to me that continuity just isn't important to them; and that's fine with me. Telling a good story is. (and yes, many debate that as well) But oh well. You can't please them all...

Rob
 
Delta Vega is almost on the edge of the galaxy near the Galactic Barrier, as shown and described in decent detail in "WNMHGB" all the way back in 1965/66. Vulcan is less than twenty light years from Earth and neither planet is on the galactic edge.

So anyone...Orci or otherwise...who thinks the planets are practically next-door to one another is just dead wrong.

I think this DV business is more proof to me that continuity just isn't important to them; and that's fine with me. Telling a good story is. (and yes, many debate that as well) But oh well. You can't please them all...

Rob

Meh, maybe so. But all things considered I think even Orci himself hinted that the scene of Spock "seeing" Vulcan die was an image or projection of some sort and not meant to be taken literally as being RIGHT there within eyeshot.
 
Delta Vega is almost on the edge of the galaxy near the Galactic Barrier, as shown and described in decent detail in "WNMHGB" all the way back in 1965/66. Vulcan is less than twenty light years from Earth and neither planet is on the galactic edge.

So anyone...Orci or otherwise...who thinks the planets are practically next-door to one another is just dead wrong.

I think this DV business is more proof to me that continuity just isn't important to them; and that's fine with me. Telling a good story is. (and yes, many debate that as well) But oh well. You can't please them all...

Rob

Meh, maybe so. But all things considered I think even Orci himself hinted that the scene of Spock "seeing" Vulcan die was an image or projection of some sort and not meant to be taken literally as being RIGHT there within eyeshot.
He did say that, never mind the fact that having two large bodies in such close proximity would cause some severe seismic disturbances even without the presence of red matter or a GSD.

He also said that they moved the planet.
[A.P.:]For the Trek fans, this film includes many little references. For example you have Kirk dropped off on the planet Delta Vega, which was seen in second Star Trek pilot. It is a cool reference, but didn’t you also fudge canon by ignoring that Delta Vega was way out next to the galactic barrier.


Orci: True. Yeah we did. We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg, than a new name with no importance.
No big deal. Having Delta Vega located off on the galactic edge was probably pretty unlikely, anyway, as was the Galactic Barrier itself.
 
Speaking of the sky of Vulcan, isn't it supposed to be red? I swear it was blue in the new movie. That's my only nit-pick, but it's not important. :shifty:

It seems Vulcan's sky is seasonal. Or at least the planet takes on a different hue in different episodes of TOS, TNG or ENT, much like Mars does in the real world. Sometimes it is salmon red, sometimes brownish, sometimes yellowish. No doubt the color of the sky is correspondingly affected, as on Mars; the likeliest cause for the color changes would be dust in the atmosphere (the second bet being changing small-scale vegetation on the surface of the sand, perhaps).

..there's more than one planet named Delta Vega.

Possibly. But for hundreds upon hundreds of hours of televised Star Trek, the writers have managed to avoid having two planets named identically by the same culture. Sure, there may be two planets named Krios (or sounding like that), but that name doesn't necessarily come from a human culture. Delta Vega is an obvious human name, and if humans in the Trek universe can't keep their records straight...

...Why, then they would appear almost like real humans! But the point is that Trek so far has nicely managed to remain simplistic rather than realistic, because that's better for drama and continuity and such stuff. Why did the makers of the current movie fail where literally thousands before them had succeeded just fine?

Sheer incompetence doesn't sound like a sufficient reason, because it's unlikely that all of those thousands were more competent than the team of STXI. Not caring is a fairly hollow-sounding reason, too, because those hard-working, ill-paid thousands probably cared even less. Yet the previous Trek writers had somewhat fanatical continuity experts to correct their mistakes; or, when dramatic reasons dictated the contradiction of some pseudofact, then these fanatical experts would soon invent a "patch" that explained everything to satisfaction in a subsequent episode or movie.

STXI seems to be very different from all previous Trek in not caring, and not allowing anybody in the team to care, either. Also, there's no concurrent TV show that could attempt to "patch" the holes being made, at least not yet. Until we get a sequel, we can't tell if the current team even cares about internal continuity between Chris Pine -starred Trek movies - but the odds do seem surprisingly bad at the moment.

Of course, perhaps the sequel will bow to the fanatical part of the audience again and "patch" some things that raised dissent in STXI...?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Either way, the shot of Nimoy's Spock looking up at his world's death and almost crying and losing control was very moving and one of the best moments of the entire film if a tad contrived.
 
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