The Ice Cave Coincidence

[plynch]

^ which brings me back to the question of how did the romulans tune the singularity so perfectly that it just sucked in vulcan completely and not this other planet which was so close? or the enterprise? or themselves?

People really seem to give this movie a lot of leeway regarding plotholes, since it was clearly a summer blockbuster "awesome-dude" type movie, so I think we're going to have to give them a pass on the crazy coincidence and the nearness of DV to Vulcan, if indeed Spock is physically seeing it.

I SURE thought it was a "vision" when I saw the movie.

Anybody have any evidence (as opposed to the speculating so many people love) about whether he physically saw it or whether it was a tele-"vision"? (Sorry.)

 

[Psion]

^ which brings me back to the question of how did the romulans tune the singularity so perfectly that it just sucked in vulcan completely and not this other planet which was so close? or the enterprise? or themselves?

Well, if the entire mass of the planet Earth were converted to a black hole, the Moon would continue to orbit the black hole just the same way it does the Earth. (Technically, they orbit around a mutual center of mass, but it's fine for this discussion to assume the Moon orbits the Earth.) A black hole doesn't change the mass of the objects that make it up, it just squeezes all that matter in so densely, that the surface gravity is within the Schwarzschild radius for that mass.

So ... assuming Red Matter doesn't conjure up extra mass from other universes, the mass of Vulcan would remain unchanged and any nearby bodies would continue with minimal gravitational disturbance. The emissions of x-rays, on the other hand, and high-energy particles would likely ruin the day for anyone unfortunate enough to be within viewing distance.

 

[Jeri]

plynch, please see my post above yours.

 

[diftorhehsmusma]

Well, if the entire mass of the planet Earth were converted to a black hole, the Moon would continue to orbit the black hole just the same way it does the Earth. (Technically, they orbit around a mutual center of mass, but it's fine for this discussion to assume the Moon orbits the Earth.) A black hole doesn't change the mass of the objects that make it up, it just squeezes all that matter in so densely, that the surface gravity is within the Schwarzschild radius for that mass.

So ... assuming Red Matter doesn't conjure up extra mass from other universes, the mass of Vulcan would remain unchanged and any nearby bodies would continue with minimal gravitational disturbance. The emissions of x-rays, on the other hand, and high-energy particles would likely ruin the day for anyone unfortunate enough to be within viewing distance.

thank you. this makes a lot of sense. so, they did nothing to tune it at all, it just sucked the matter immediately surrounding. is this like having a limited fuel supply? and after that is exhausted it becomes somewhat inert?

 

[Greg Cox]

We already had katras and telepathy; destiny is no stretch. Spock felt all the souls die on the Intrepid. Let's not get peanut butter on our chocolate here.

I don't even think you need "Destiny" with a capital D. The idea that disrupted timelines try to mend themselves is a time-honored science fiction cliche.

 

[M'Sharak]

^ which brings me back to the question of how did the romulans tune the singularity so perfectly that it just sucked in vulcan completely and not this other planet which was so close? or the enterprise? or themselves?

Vulcan-as-singularity should still have the same mass as it did pre-collapse, and should therefore exert the same gravitational pull on neighboring objects as it always had. Anything orbiting ought to continue orbiting at the same radius form Vulcan's center (the center now containing the entire mass of the planet) and anything in an adjacent orbit should continue on its way with no new perturbations.

It does remain unstated whether the small amount of red matter which triggered the collapse would change the above in any way, but since no reason has been given to assume so, it's sensible to assume not until such time as evidence to the contrary presents itself.

Edit:

Psion got the answer in while I was busy fiddling with wording.

 

[diftorhehsmusma]

which again makes me wonder why the enterprise would have to worry at all about being sucked in with the planet.

 

[Psion]

Psion got the answer in while I was busy fiddling with wording.

Pure luck, I assure you.

which again makes me wonder why the enterprise would have to worry at all about being sucked in with the planet.

You're absolutely right to wonder that. It would have been smarter if they had to leave the area to avoid gamma and x-rays.

 

[Chrisisall]

Well, JJ did say he was more of a Star Wars guy. Looks like The Force is being shoved into Star Trek, which explains why Kirk landed on Dagobah right next to Yoda. Er, I mean Luke landed on Delta Vega right next to Spock. I mean, er...

That's really funny.

 

[Chrisisall]

So he imagined the deflating of Happy Fun Ball in the same way that we the audience watched it?

Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

I believe it had something to do with fate, destiny and the universe trying to correct itself thus bringing Kirk and Spock Prime together so they can work towards that correction.

I don't know if it would make the meeting seem more logical to some, but it would certainly add an extra aura of mysticism and "higher" powers at work perhaps.

That's my take on it too, that the timeline is somewhat "rubber-bandy" in that you can distort it some but it will try its best to return to the original shape... at least inthis trekverse anyway.

Frankly, spock could have been anywhere. We know he can feel a starship full of Vulcans being eliminated, Delta Vega needn't be in viewing distance from Vulcan. I believe the destruction of Vulcan from Delta Vega as we saw it was taking license with it for our benefit and that Spock prime wasn't looking at a large globe of planet with his geen-blooded eyes.

 

[davejames]

^ which brings me back to the question of how did the romulans tune the singularity so perfectly that it just sucked in vulcan completely and not this other planet which was so close? or the enterprise? or themselves?

Well being an artificial black hole, maybe it operates differently. For all we know, it closes shortly after the planet gets swallowed up.

 

[davejames]

which again makes me wonder why the enterprise would have to worry at all about being sucked in with the planet.

Well the girl was new. Maybe she just didn't know any better.

 

[number6]

Life is chock full of coincidences. None of this is an issue for me, instead a rather clever way of bringing Kirk, Spock and Scotty together into the story.

 

[plynch]

I'm way more confused than before seeing this thread.

What is Delta Vega and why is it so close to Vulcan? Please reference your evidence for believing as you do.

 

[Cr031k]

This sequence was rubbish, but without it, no plot continuation. No one can tell me Nero drops Spock off on Delta Vega to watch his planet be destroyed, Spock sits in a cave, Kirk shows, and Spock says...

Oh hey theres a FEDERATION OUTPOST CLOSE BY. I should have used that when I was first marooned here but instead I decided to sit in a cave and not warn anyone and watch Vulcan blow up. I could have used that advanced beaming junk to get back to my jellyfish but meh... The Transformers dudes wrote this movie... I like this cave.

But now that youre here Jimmy boy... Lets go kick some pre TOS spock butt and beat up that Nero dude.

 

[Jeri]

There can be more than one planet named Delta Vega, just like there are at least two Las Vegases -- or maybe more, if you count Latin America. How many Springfields are there? About a jillion.

What is so hard about that?

 

[johnsonalmighty]

We already had katras and telepathy; destiny is no stretch. Spock felt all the souls die on the Intrepid. Let's not get peanut butter on our chocolate here.

But I love my Peanut Butter with My chocolate.

 

[plynch]

MemoryAlpha says DV in the movie is in the Vulcan system.

(It would have to be awfully close for Vulcan to be so big, as others have noted.) That seems to eliminate the coincidence of Kirk landing there since the Ent was in the Vulcan system (i.e. near DV) already.

I kinda liked my impression of it being a telepathic "vision" better, but ok.

[And to those who mentioned the Star Wars vibe, the comic relief with a sidekick is very Lucas-esque, as is an unnecessary, off-topic action sequence (Scotty in the Willie Wonka pipes). Interesting. And off-topic for this thread, but discussion by definition is discursive, right? Good night.]

 

[pookha]

I'm one of those that was bothered by the rather large coincidence. I would have preferred it if they left that line in.

I'm in menopause. You cant expect me to be able to think this stuff through on my own anymore.......

if coincidence bothers you then stay from some of the greek playwrights like socrates.
some of those guys just wallowed in it.