The Ice Cave Coincidence
- Thread starter jadcox@mindspring.com
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What about the 2 alien creatures that almost eat Kirk? Don't tell me that Spock intended the bigger alien creature to kill the smaller one just in time before it could eat Kirk.Than the bigger alien creature tries to eat Kirk too but luckily Kirk managed to reach the cave in a nick of time
..
Then you like Star Wars on your Star Trek.
Yeah...I won't tell you that; it has nothing to do with Spock. Kirk headed toward the caves. If Spock hadn't been sheltering there, too, Kirk would have been killed.What about the 2 alien creatures that almost eat Kirk? Don't tell me that Spock intended the bigger alien creature to kill the smaller one just in time before it could eat Kirk.Than the bigger alien creature tries to eat Kirk too but luckily Kirk managed to reach the cave in a nick of time
Spock was in the cave because he was looking for Zarabeth.
Yeah it was pretty unlikely... but it WAS meant to be a surprise. It might have been far more plausible if Kirk ran into Spock already at the base, but it would have been a completely "ho-hum" moment in the movie. And it's not like we've all never bumped into an old friend in some random, unenexpected place before. It DOES happen.
In any case, while it definitely seems odd when you stop and think about it, in the course of watching the actual movie it somehow never bothers me.
it has never bothered me. coincidences do happen. destiny may have had a hand in it, that is definitely the feeling i got. and anyway, it was just priceless to see the look on old spock's face when he turned around and recognised the kid. and how this ended up playing into the younger spock's character development - just yummy.
so, since this is not an impossibility, i am willing to go with it. the scene between the two of them in the cave was well-written and well-acted, so i'm cool. improbability is not enough of a reason for me to make stink about such a thing.
as for old spock's line about the timeline trying to mend itself, i'm sort of on the fence about that. at first, when i read about that, i really wished they had left it in. since then i have started to think that it would have made an already semi-contrived sequence of events feel too heavy-handed. and anyway, doesn't that deal a severe blow to whatever free will these characters have? suppose kirk and spock had never come to terms with each other, but were 'destined' to work together anyway? would suck to be them. i don't like the idea that you are doomed to be close to someone no matter what. so i'm willing to accept that destiny had a hand in all that, but this line makes it seem totally inevitable, which i don't like.
so, since this is not an impossibility, i am willing to go with it. the scene between the two of them in the cave was well-written and well-acted, so i'm cool. improbability is not enough of a reason for me to make stink about such a thing.
as for old spock's line about the timeline trying to mend itself, i'm sort of on the fence about that. at first, when i read about that, i really wished they had left it in. since then i have started to think that it would have made an already semi-contrived sequence of events feel too heavy-handed. and anyway, doesn't that deal a severe blow to whatever free will these characters have? suppose kirk and spock had never come to terms with each other, but were 'destined' to work together anyway? would suck to be them. i don't like the idea that you are doomed to be close to someone no matter what. so i'm willing to accept that destiny had a hand in all that, but this line makes it seem totally inevitable, which i don't like.
For the record, Delta Vega is NOT that close to Vulcan. Nero transmitted/projected a large, holographic subspace image of Vulcan being destroyed to Old Spock, which he viewed from the surface. Delta Vega is not in the same star system or even next door to Vulcan in EITHER timeline or canon.
so.... how did kirk end up there?
He was jettisoned there as the Enterprise warped/flew in pursuit of Nero. The escape pod thing didn't happen while the Enterprise was still at Vulcan's coordinates or even in the system. The ship left as soon as Spock and the few Vulcan survivors were retrieved. Then Kirk was kicked off the ship.
ah, ok. there has been some debate about this.
how do you know that what spock saw was a projection? is this ever stated explicitly anywhere?
how do you know that what spock saw was a projection? is this ever stated explicitly anywhere?
^
Not on screen, unfortunately. But since Delta Vega is not in the same solar system as Vulcan and some dialogue and scenes were cut from the film before release its becoming an accepted thing that the image of Vulcan perishing was a transmitted image.
Not on screen, unfortunately. But since Delta Vega is not in the same solar system as Vulcan and some dialogue and scenes were cut from the film before release its becoming an accepted thing that the image of Vulcan perishing was a transmitted image.
sure, why not? makes sense. i just wish they had addressed that somewhere.
....but i have heard that there *is* another planet in the vicinity of vulcan. why not dump spock there?
and i also wish there was more explanation about how scotty just happened to be there. both people i went to see the film with assumed that olson was scotty, just because he had an accent, presumably. even tho' he had already been called 'olson' and had a plain aussie accent. hah!
....but i have heard that there *is* another planet in the vicinity of vulcan. why not dump spock there?
and i also wish there was more explanation about how scotty just happened to be there. both people i went to see the film with assumed that olson was scotty, just because he had an accent, presumably. even tho' he had already been called 'olson' and had a plain aussie accent. hah!
My personal take on that scene when Spock witnesses the collapse of Vulcan was that Spock was experiencing their deaths in the same way he experienced the destruction of the Intrepid; the view of Vulcan in Delta Vega's sky was metaphorical, and not literal.
But it seems that wasn't the case, as several interviews I've since read indicate that J.J. and company moved Delta Vega to the Vulcan system so they could do a little in-joke reference to Kirk's attempt to maroon Gary Mitchell on the same world.
Look up in the night sky some time and look at Mars and Jupiter. Those are planets in the same system as Earth. Not even the Earth from the Moon looks as big as Vulcan did in Delta Vega's sky.
It should have been a random planet in a neighboring system.
But it seems that wasn't the case, as several interviews I've since read indicate that J.J. and company moved Delta Vega to the Vulcan system so they could do a little in-joke reference to Kirk's attempt to maroon Gary Mitchell on the same world.
Look up in the night sky some time and look at Mars and Jupiter. Those are planets in the same system as Earth. Not even the Earth from the Moon looks as big as Vulcan did in Delta Vega's sky.
It should have been a random planet in a neighboring system.
or, does (did) vulcan not have any moons? and how did they manage to balance the singularity just right to only suck in vulcan and not something else which was apparently so close?
unless, of course, it was a projection. this makes the most sense and i really wish they had said that. or the part where the girl on the bridge says, "the black hole is expanding. we won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." and then they hang around for several more minutes. eek. really, this sequence is looking to be the weakest in the film in regards to any kind of science, forget the coincidence of kirk meeting old spock and scotty.
i may start a separate thread on this topic. any thoughts?
unless, of course, it was a projection. this makes the most sense and i really wish they had said that. or the part where the girl on the bridge says, "the black hole is expanding. we won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." and then they hang around for several more minutes. eek. really, this sequence is looking to be the weakest in the film in regards to any kind of science, forget the coincidence of kirk meeting old spock and scotty.
i may start a separate thread on this topic. any thoughts?
So he imagined the deflating of Happy Fun Ball in the same way that we the audience watched it?
If it is destiny and the universe is righting itself, we're getting into Gary Zhukov/The Secret territory, and away from a science/plausibility based fictional universe. My two cents.
A question:
Did Spock see (as humans do) the destruction, or was it more a telepathic vision. If he saw it, then Delta Vega is in the same star system as Vulcan, right? I saw the flick twice and haven't read any ancillary stuff, so I just don't know.
edit: Oops -- I didn't see the second page of posts; I am not the only one with questions about this. Comforting, I guess.
A question:
Did Spock see (as humans do) the destruction, or was it more a telepathic vision. If he saw it, then Delta Vega is in the same star system as Vulcan, right? I saw the flick twice and haven't read any ancillary stuff, so I just don't know.
edit: Oops -- I didn't see the second page of posts; I am not the only one with questions about this. Comforting, I guess.
Um, this was NOT meant to be the same Delta Vega from TOS. The writers just used the name as a homage.
And the projection idea sounds kind of goofy to me. If that's all it was meant to be, Spock could have just watched it on a cave wall, or directly in front of him-- not high up in the sky like we saw.
Nope, we can rationalize it all we want, but this was clearly meant to be a nearby planet, and Spock was watching Vulcan being destroyed right in front of him.
^ which brings me back to the question of how did the romulans tune the singularity so perfectly that it just sucked in vulcan completely and not this other planet which was so close? or the enterprise? or themselves?
On the real world level, knowing what we know about the creators, I'd have to say it's definitely them injecting a little Star Wars into Trek. But I did like the explanation that the timeline nudging things toward certain events, a sort of temporal inertia. That's actually an old concept in time travel stories, and of course, it's readily apparent in Lost, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.
The record is on screen, which shows Spock watching Vulcan from Delta Vega -- and Kirk being shot there in an escape pod.
Did you know there is also a Las Vegas, New Mexico? There is. And the people who live there are not seeing it transmitted from Las Vegas, Nevada.
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