The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies Grade/Discuss (Spoilers)

[fireproof78]

I absolutely think Arwen should have joined Helm's Deep, and then continued forward with Aragorn for the rest of the story. After all, Elrond's sons hook up with Aragon and go on the Paths of the Dead with him. God forbid we have a female character actually participate in the story. ;-)

We do, just not in the same role as Aragorn. The Paths of the Dead were butchered in the movie anyway. So much of the story comes from Tolkien's experiences in the trenches - leaving family behind to fight in a foreign land, beside men who start out as strangers or even enemies but through the crucible of battle become lifelong friends. Having Arwen at Aragorn's side changes the entire dynamic of the story.

***And I say this as a huge Tolkein purist who's read the novels like twenty times.

A purist who wants Arwen At Helms Deep? Sounds like a steak-eating vegan to me...

Part of the adaptation process, sometimes.

Also, with due respect to everyone, the Path's of the Dead in the book had Aragorn joined up with Elladan, Elrohir (Elrond's sons) as well as a company of Aragorn's Ranger/Dunedain kin to join him on the Paths of the Dead.

So, I do understand your point about Tolkien's experiences in the trenches translating in to LOTR, but I think that better applies to the Fellowship more than, than that chapter.

However, I will agree that the Paths of the Dead could have been done better in the films.

 

[Mr Light]

The movie version of the Paths is fun, but I do prefer the terrifyingly creepy original version. The thought of being in this dark tunnel with this mass of dead phantoms lurking just out of their reach, unseen but felt, inches away... good stuff.

 

[Mytran]

A creepiness that I'm sure all of us have felt at some point, walking home on a dark night...
This is something that works really well in print, but very hard to do on film. Radio 4 handled it OK though, but that medium fits vocalised thoughts better than live-action.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

***And I say this as a huge Tolkein purist who's read the novels like twenty times.

A purist who wants Arwen At Helms Deep? Sounds like a steak-eating vegan to me...

I wasn't as sure about "Arwen at Helm's Deep," and I'm still not sure, almost fifteen years on, how it would have worked, but it may well have worked. Or it may not. Jackson may have made the right decision not to commit to that change.

The change I really wish he had committed to was Aragorn versus Sauron at the Black Gate. When you watch the three films together, it's obvious that's the climax Jackson is building toward with all of the "You are not Isildur" stuff.

 

[Mr Light]

That's another change I would have liked. Aragorn vs Sauron at the Black Gate. it's makes Movie Sense. it's not like he has to DEFEAT him, he just has to survive long enough getting thrown around for the Ring to drop.

 

[Mytran]

There's hints of the A/S battle as far back as FOTR, where Saruman tells Gandalf that "he (Sauron) cannot yet take physical form", the implication being that he soon will be able to.

While the nerd in me (especially 15 years ago!) would love to have seen the pure book realised on screen, the realist in me knows that you cannot just transpose media forms that way. These days, I would be more willing to have an adaptation of LOTR that was internally self consistent and told a great tale, even if changes were made from the source material. The beef I have with the Hobbit is where it's padded out with stuff that is unnecessary or just makes no narrative sense!

 

[Skywalker]

The time for Aragorn to confront both Sauron and his own personal doubts was when he took up the palantír and revealed himself to Sauron, along with the reforged blade that cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. Unfortunately, the movie had Aragorn "lose" the struggle to play up that lame "Arwen is dying!" drama.

 

[fireproof78]

^
Indeed. Sauron's revelation to Aragorn about Arwen should hardly have surprised him. He should have been able to fight that off as well.

Not one of the better scenes, in my opinion.

 

[Reverend]

I've probably said this before a number of times but I think the biggest flaw of the Hobbit movies wasn't the unnecessary padding (if which there is plenty) but the medium into which was adapted. The Hobbit just doesn't lend itself very well to the three act structure of a movie, not even spread across two or three.

The way the book is written however lends itself rather perfectly to a tv mini-series. The chapters are clearly episodic in nature and too such an extent I've often wondered if the initial intent was to publish it in a serialized form in a periodical before printing a hardback.

This format would have allowed for greater depth and focus on characters (a must with such a large ensemble cast) and would not have had to rely so much or big action and pure visual spectacle to try holding the audience's attention. Sure, the budget (and profits) would have been one tenth that of the movies, but from an artistic POV I think it would have been the better product.

 

[DWF]

So, somebody figured out that Smaug is naked in all of his scenes. But really, the movie needed better editing and the best example of the loose editing is that Bilbo left Erebor with the chest filled with gold, then upon his approach to the Shire he's got it under his arm.

 

[Set Harth]

The addition of Thrain to DOS was an unnecessary one, IMO and led to some frankly bizarre scenes! I was quite happy for Thrain to have given Gandalf the map & key at some point in the 60 years interim (hinting at a family connection prior to the "chance meeting" at Bree)

Thrain in TDOS EE doesn't change anything about how Gandalf got the map & key prior to the quest in Jackson's version of events ( established in AUJ ). This wasn't in the "60 years interim" between The Hobbit and LOTR, it was prior to the Battle of Azanulbizar ( called the "Battle of Moria" in the films ).

Sorry, the Hobbit was not LOTR, and was never meant to be.

LOTR was a The Hobbit sequel.

Where films are concerned, the Hobbit films were LOTR prequels. They were never meant to be a rendition of The Hobbit as a stand-alone, as if LOTR did not exist.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Teenage Frodo, idiot Treebeard, Arwen showing up at Helm's Deep, and Denethor doing a header off Minas Tirith probably confirmed his bias against the film industry.

Yes, I know #3 didn't make it to theaters, but the fact that it was filmed at all....

I think it goes back further than that, but all fair points.

TBH I wouldn't have minded Arwen showing up at Helm's deep; it would have made more sense to the narrative (her being an established character with understood motivations) than a bunch of wandering NPC elves whose sole job was to die by the end of the battle.

The elves fighting at Helm's Deep was just a bad idea period. Arwen or no Arwen. If PJ really wanted more of her he should have just slot her into the Paths of the Dead and Pelennor Field and basically replace her brothers. That would have made more sense.

 

[Disco]

The Elves fighting at Helm's Deep was amazing. It helped make that scene in the movie.

 

[Mytran]

The addition of Thrain to DOS was an unnecessary one, IMO and led to some frankly bizarre scenes! I was quite happy for Thrain to have given Gandalf the map & key at some point in the 60 years interim (hinting at a family connection prior to the "chance meeting" at Bree)

Thrain in TDOS EE doesn't change anything about how Gandalf got the map & key prior to the quest in Jackson's version of events ( established in AUJ ). This wasn't in the "60 years interim" between The Hobbit and LOTR, it was prior to the Battle of Azanulbizar ( called the "Battle of Moria" in the films ).

I see your confusion - I was referring to the 60 years in between Smaug's attack and the Bag End party though (Thorin specifies the time elapsed).

The rest of my comment did come accross awkwardly I admit, as it speaks to the muddle in my head about Gandalf meeting Thrain in Dol Goldur (in the book) and meeting Thrain in the movies at an unspecified time prior to the Moria battle (where for some reason he gives Gandalf the map & key but keeps the ring) and then meeting him again at Dol Goldur just so he can shove in some LOTR dwarf-ring stuff and leap to his death! Yeah, best ignore me on that bit

 

[Mr Light]

As Jackson said in the commentary, since the movie didn't have time to establish the Mordor attacks on Lorien and Dale, they had to show the Elves doing something in the war or they just come off looking like assholes who aren't helping. So Elves showing up at Helm's Deep is a symbolic representation of those other missing battles.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

The elves fighting at Helm's Deep was just a bad idea period. Arwen or no Arwen. If PJ really wanted more of her he should have just slot her into the Paths of the Dead and Pelennor Field and basically replace her brothers. That would have made more sense.

My big issue with the Elves at Helm's Deep is that none of them survived. They took 100% casualties. Theoden's forces didn't even take 100% casualties.

 

[InklingStar]

The elves fighting at Helm's Deep was just a bad idea period. Arwen or no Arwen. If PJ really wanted more of her he should have just slot her into the Paths of the Dead and Pelennor Field and basically replace her brothers. That would have made more sense.

My big issue with the Elves at Helm's Deep is that none of them survived. They took 100% casualties. Theoden's forces didn't even take 100% casualties.

They had to, else what would they have done after the battle? Gone home? Rode with Theoden? Paths of the Dead?

I did not mind adding the Elves to Helms Deep, as it remained in the spirit of the books. Elrond and Galadriel (in the books) fought off sieges of Imladris and Lothlorien, so seeing the Elves fight at Helms Deep gives us just a hint of that.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My big issue with the Elves at Helm's Deep is that none of them survived. They took 100% casualties. Theoden's forces didn't even take 100% casualties.

They had to, else what would they have done after the battle? Gone home? Rode with Theoden? Paths of the Dead?

I wouldn't have had any problem if the Elves had been part of the Ride of the Rohirrim. Or they could have gone on the Paths of the Dead like the Grey Company. In for a penny, in for a pound, after all.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, the Hobbit was not LOTR, and was never meant to be.

LOTR was a The Hobbit sequel.

Where films are concerned, the Hobbit films were LOTR prequels. They were never meant to be a rendition of The Hobbit as a stand-alone, as if LOTR did not exist.

I was not clear in my point so allow me to clarify. I'm not saying treat the Hobbit in a vacuum, as if LOTR did not exist.I'm saying that it was not written as a grand, sweeping, epic, like LOTR was written to be. It is a matter of tone differences between the two source materials.

Also, since the Hobbit was written first, why could it not be written with little influence by LOTR? It did come first, after all.

My big issue with the Elves at Helm's Deep is that none of them survived. They took 100% casualties. Theoden's forces didn't even take 100% casualties.

They had to, else what would they have done after the battle? Gone home? Rode with Theoden? Paths of the Dead?

I wouldn't have had any problem if the Elves had been part of the Ride of the Rohirrim. Or they could have gone on the Paths of the Dead like the Grey Company. In for a penny, in for a pound, after all.

Personally, I would have preferred this as well, but I also understand the reasoning behind the Lorien Elves showing up.

 

[Skywalker]

I was fine with the Elves fighting at Helm's Deep for the reasons Mr Light and InklingStar laid out.

I also would have been cool with Arwen bringing Andúril to Aragorn instead of Elrond and then joining him, Legolas, and Gimli on the Paths of the Dead, as a way to represent Elladan and Elrohir and the Grey Company joining them in the book. I think it would have been better than Arwen lying around Rivendell and dying because of the Ring for some reason. They already set her up as a warrior in FotR, so it wouldn't have been that out of place.