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The hideously racist way Starfleet treated Dal

Guy Gardener said:
You're forgetting that the Cardassians were not assholes at every step of the story.

The Central Command gave thousands, maybe millions, of Orphan Federation Citizens full Cardassian Citizenship when the border moved who chose to remain in Cardassian Space despite the Federation's insistence to flee to safe harbour.

Politician Generals stomached this decision, and decided to play it out.

Hillbilly Militia asshole criminals decided that all humans must die, even human beings with Cardassian Citizenship, which would have put all those hillbillies in jail, every time they killed a human with Cardassian papers, and tried to take their farm.

Cardassian Soldiers would have been protecting human farms, and being murdered while protecting human farms by Cardassian outlaw criminal militant Hillbillies who have no love or respect or love for the Central Command.

The enemy was not the Central Command, until the Maquis started targeting the Central Command.
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I think you give the Central Command too much credit. Federation people were given "full Cardassian citizenship" the same way Ukrainians in Crimea or in the Donbass "became" Russians (to use a current analogy).

Not that "citizenship" in the fascist Cardassian state was ever something they would have desired.
 
As I recall, Starfleet Command relaxed its attitude towards Dal when Janeway pointed out that, while he is obviously a 'hybrid', he was not enhanced in any way. That's the kicker.

I mean, obviously there are individual Federation citizens with DNA from multiple races. Spock, for example. It took some genetic tinkering for Sarek and Amanda to even conceive Spock in the first place, and yet Spock faced no roadblocks in joining Starfleet (that we're aware of).

Once Janeway pointed out that Dal was in pretty much the same boat (the only difference being that Dal has DNA from dozens of races), Starfleet relented and allowed him to apply to the Academy.

So in the end, I'm not really seeing the 'racism' here. :shrug:
 
IRW Bloodwing said:
Since my thread in General got nerfed, I'll repoen the discussion here. Trek's writing about Augments in the Federation has been problematic, to say the least. The Federation is supposed to represent elightened ideals. Racism isn't supposed to be any part of its make up.

The trial board didn't even grant Del the dignity of his name, for god's sake. Shame on Trek's writers!
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Dal does not have a race. Hence, any maltreatment of him cannot be racist.
 
fireproof78 said:
Shame, eh? How shall we shame them?
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Shame is overrated. It needs to be taken out and shot.

Uhura's Song said:
Dal does not have a race. Hence, any maltreatment of him cannot be racist.
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And I dispute the notion that Dal has been mistreated in any way.

Starfleet Command weighed the evidence, decided that Dal was not at fault regarding his own creation, and decided to grant him admission to the Academy. In no way was that "mistreatment" or "racist".

Whatever one thinks regarding the Federation's ban on genetic engineering...in Dal's case, it's clear they did the right thing.
 
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Mr. Laser Beam said:
Shame is overrated. It needs to be taken out and shot.



And I dispute the notion that Dal has been mistreated in any way.

Starfleet Command weighed the evidence, decided that Dal was not at fault regarding his own creation, and decided to grant him admission to the Academy. In no way was that "mistreatment" or "racist".

Whatever one thinks regarding the Federation's ban on genetic engineering...in Dal's case, it's clear they did the right thing.
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Dal was not permitted entry in to the Academy. He has been shoe horned in to Starfleet as a warrant officer who can never obtain substantial career advancement because he does not have Academy accreditation or training. Hopefully Dal can still get to the academy one day though, somehow, so that he can become a real Captain. Unless they want to change the rules in this toon so that warrant officers get just as equal opportunities for career advancement within Starfleet as standard cadets depending on ‘job and performance evaluation’?

Is there evidence that it was a *general* Federation ban on augmentation for all species? Or was it just a Federation ban on human augmentation? I’m referring to the most contemporary reference to this ban, though there may be more documentation further along the timeline. Was article 618 ‘grandfathered’ in to the Articles of the Federation? If so, could it be taken literally in regards to its references of human augmentation? This would mean that Dal and Number one are exempt as they are *not* human.
ARTICLE 618

The Allied and Associated powers, recognizing the destructive role genetic engineering of the human genome played in the recent conflict, agree to collectively limit and control all such research in this area, and ban any practical application of such research. This includes, but is not limited to, the purposeful or accidental manipulation of DNA in a grown human being, or said manipulation of DNA in the creation of a human being. Such purposeful or accidental results of the manipulation of DNA banned by this treaty include, but are not limited to: increased muscle or skin density, enhanced brain function, superior immune system, and enhanced ocular, olfactory, auditory, somatosensory, or gustatory functions.
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O'Brien is a non-com who became chief engineer and then the most important person in history without having gone to the Academy, instead ending up teaching there ;)
 
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Timofnine said:
Dal was not permitted entry in to the Academy. He has been shoe horned in to Starfleet as a warrant officer who can never obtain substantial career advancement because he does not have Academy accreditation or training. Hopefully Dal can still get to the academy one day though, somehow, so that he can become a real Captain. Unless they want to change the rules in this toon so that warrant officers get just as equal opportunities for career advancement within Starfleet as standard cadets depending on ‘job and performance evaluation’?
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The details pertaining to what Warrant officers in training can do within SF are undefined.
The show writers obviously didn't want to make things too easy on the kids so they'd be admitted into the Academy right away.
In fact, I would imagine this route makes more sense.
They are an uknown component for the most part, and require further experience/training to be seriously considered (along with maturation).

Remember that non-UFP individuals require a recommendation of a commanding officer to be admitted into the Academy (Nog needed it).
We don't know though whether the Brikar or Mellanoid Slime Worms are species part of the Federation (at least, not from canon)... they may be, but technically speaking the kids themselves (Rok and Murf) might not be.

We also know the Tellarites are members (in fact FOUNDING members), but Jankom (technically) predates the Federation and hasn't woken up from stasis until aabout a year or so prior to 2383.

Not sure what the rules are in regards to species that are part of UFP but have settlers elsewhere (I would imagine if they OFFICIALLY severed ties with the Federation, they and their offspring would not be Federation citizens, however, Jankom was born pre-Federation and lived for a bit well outside UFP space, so on a technicality, he is not a Federation citizen).

Since the kids never knew of the Federation to begin with (and have origins that suggest they weren't in colonies etc. that were part of UFP- and Dal was created outside the Federation by protege's of Soong who left the UFP to make him... plus, Gwyn as a Vau'N'A'Kat is not a UFP member (because Solum is not a member - at least, not yet)... they'd all be considered non UFP members.

There's a very high possibiltiy however that given the special circumstances, Janeway will be recommending them all (heck, she already did).

The training under her wing is an opportunity for the kids to get a real taste of what working in SF really is.
Its a period of adjustment.... but its also possible that SF may consider giving the kids official field commissions if they distinguish themselves in the field.

VA Janeway will probably keep them busy and put them through Academy training anyway under her wing... this way, they will be given the best possible opportunity to pass any requirements that SF may have in store for them in the future if they are offerred places in the Academy - which for the kids, might entail that they just remain in the field and eventually get their commissions.

Is there evidence that it was a *general* Federation ban on augmentation for all species? Or was it just a Federation ban on human augmentation? I’m referring to the most contemporary reference to this ban, though there may be more documentation further along the timeline. Was article 618 ‘grandfathered’ in to the Articles of the Federation? If so, could it be taken literally in regards to its references of human augmentation? This would mean that Dal and Number one are exempt as they are *not* human.
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Strange New Worlds series indicates the ban is in effect for ALL species that are genetically modified/enhanced (not just humans).
There's a whole issue on that show right now with Illyrians, and it was established they wanted to join the UFP so much that they even tried to reverse their genetic modifications so they would be admitted... but unfortunately, it didn't work (or at least not yet),.

If I'm not mistaken, the Illiryians are part of the UFP (as of the later part of the 23rd century - aka, ST: the movie)... so either they managed to undo their genetic augmentation, or, UFP made an exception because the procedure was attempted and failed, and asked the Illiryans to keep quiet about their genetic augmentations.

It's actually quite interesting they would choose to go so far to remove genetic enhancements just to join the Federation.
What was the allure exactly?
The Illiryans could have probably become very good/close allies with the Federation and establish some kind of a 'deal' which would provide them with benefits of membership without actually being a member.
 
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Timofnine said:
Dal was not permitted entry in to the Academy. He has been shoe horned in to Starfleet as a warrant officer who can never obtain substantial career advancement because he does not have Academy accreditation or training.
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It's a temporary solution.
 
BTW, somewhere in the last three episodes Janeway states that Dal is human, grafted with the other races. (We just binged the last three.)
 
Dal was not permitted entry in to the Academy. He has been shoe horned in to Starfleet as a warrant officer who can never obtain substantial career advancement because he does not have Academy accreditation or training. Hopefully Dal can still get to the academy one day though, somehow, so that he can become a real Captain. Unless they want to change the rules in this toon so that warrant officers get just as equal opportunities for career advancement within Starfleet as standard cadets depending on ‘job and performance evaluation’?

Do you have evidence for this assertion?

IRL, Warrant Officer courses, similarly to Enlisted Training, are short (typically a few weeks) focused courses designed to produce personal that can fill junior billets equivalent to commissioned officers and USN Boatswain (711X and 721X), CWO2 Flying Warrant Officers and several Army/Marine billets including Aviation and Special Forces all have command responsibilities of small boats/stations, rotary aircraft (equivalent to shuttles or runabouts) and various second-in-command or deputy functions.

Personally, I think it makes sense given that they have proven useful skills but are themselves largely unknown quantities.
 
Shamrock Holmes said:
Dal was not permitted entry in to the Academy.
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Well no, the kids were forbidden from bypassing the usual steps to get into the academy.

Janeway found a way for them join without having to enter the academy and get right back into the action.

Edit: Oh you were quoting Tim. Maybe actually quote their post instead of just copy and pasting it into yours, it confused me.
 
Shamrock Holmes said:
IRL, Warrant Officer courses, similarly to Enlisted Training, are short (typically a few weeks) focused courses designed to produce personal that can fill junior billets equivalent to commissioned officers and USN Boatswain (711X and 721X), CWO2 Flying Warrant Officers and several Army/Marine billets including Aviation and Special Forces all have command responsibilities of small boats/stations, rotary aircraft (equivalent to shuttles or runabouts) and various second-in-command or deputy functions.

Personally, I think it makes sense given that they have proven useful skills but are themselves largely unknown quantities.
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This.
The warrant officers in training would in that case provide the kids to serve in Starfleet, and continue proving themselves and develop their skills.
Once the time comes, its possible that SF will deem them adequately trained to skip Academy and simply get official field promotion after enough time has passed (and I think VA Janeway will put them through Academy training anyway like she did with Icheb on VOY).
 
Deks said:
This.
The warrant officers in training would in that case provide the kids to serve in Starfleet, and continue proving themselves and develop their skills.
Once the time comes, its possible that SF will deem them adequately trained to skip Academy and simply get official field promotion after enough time has passed (and I think VA Janeway will put them through Academy training anyway like she did with Icheb on VOY).
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Can they become full officers that way though? That does seem doubtful, or is there evidence to the contrary?
 
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