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The hideously racist way Starfleet treated Dal

Actually, @Deks , I believe that you are wrong. I have rewatched the scene in question. Dr Jago takes a strand of Dal’s hair and places it in to a scanner, Dal’s DNA is in turn displayed via holographic projection of a familiar DNA helix. This holographic representation of Dal’s DNA then transitions via animation in to a decompiled profile of Dal’s genetic makeup - we even see how it is all links together.

As Dr Jago looks through Dal’s ‘profile’ he immediately *visually* identifies that Dal is the handy work of a Soong protégée as he saw familiarity in the geneticists ‘handy work’. Jago states that Dal likely began as a homosapien/humanoid/human and was augmented with recessive DNA from the 26 species listed in the graphics as depicted via the hologram, screenshot earlier in this thread.

We can not deny what we have seen in canon on screen, Deks.

Now, we need to think about just how this Soong protégé collected all of these samples from the four quadrants. Founder DNA *could* have been collected from one of the 100 founders that were sent out to explore the galaxy, perhaps even from Odo himself who had been living in the Alpha Quadrant for many years on Terok Nor/Bajor. Other DNA could have been collected via travel using the Borg transwarp conduit network or some other unknown means of travel. Alternatively, someone may have stumbled upon a Borg cube in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant and collected DNA samples from all of the different species that the cubes drones were comprised of; some of these species *would* indeed have been unknown 17 years ago, but in the 2380’s a species designation could finally be identified as a result of cross referencing Dal’s DNA against Voyagers first contact database after the ships recent return home to the Alpha Quadrant.

We can also entertain the possibility that the Soong protégé geneticist who created Dal was on a multi generation sleeper ship similar to the Botany Bay, it could have been collecting DNA from around the galaxy on it’s century spanning journey retracing the steps of the Progenitors or Preservers in order to recreate the galaxies first life forms who helped to seed the galaxy. Dal could even be a galactic genetic puzzle being put together - he could be a genetic ‘key’ to something on a galactic level. Dal could even potentially be the ultimate form of galactic evolution from the far future of the galaxy, but of course engineered in the present with extrapolated information and genetic projections. Dal could also possibly have been designed to act as a common life form genetically linked to all major species in order to bring peace throughout the galaxy.

Regardless, I think that the evidence on screen in the episode Masquerade is accurate and can not be disputed unless the writers want to overwrite Dal’s genetic profile in a future episode with only Federation member/friendly species with a bit of retcon. It was *not* stated on screen that Dal was sequenced only from Federation member species, however. If Dal was a hybrid of *only* Federation species, this leads to the question of whether the Federation themselves were covertly involved in his creation for some reason.

Please rewatch the scene 7 minutes and 58 seconds in to the episode Masquerade for clarification and confirmation of everything that I have said above. :techman:

I think that the writers have a lot of explaining to do, personally. Though they may just brush this all off for now.:shrug:

Its still not possible.
The writers said Dal was supposed to be 17 years old.
Ergo, he would have been created in 2366 (the show Prodigy takes place in 2383).
Species 8472 hadn't even been in our galaxy until the Borg tried assimilating them in 2373 (and back then, Species 8472 would have actually probably invaded the galaxy if someone from our side tried 'contaminating' their realm - they only did that when the Borg invaded).

Even with Odo living on DS9 or Bajor, let's be real... SF and UFP didn't have access to Bajor or DS9 until 2369 (prior to this, its unlikely the Cardassians would have allowed many traders onboard their station. The protege's of Soong couldn't just casually stroll onto Terrok Nor and take Odo's sample (it would have been a lot easier to do this when SF was on DS9).

Oh and, travelling via the TW network back then would have been a ridiculous endeavour because ships would suffer rather big hits on structural integrity (if not be completely destroyed), and the Borg were still very much of a threat in 2366. And if they noticed someone was using their TW conduits... they'd probably be curious as to who was doing that and put a stop to it.

I'm not ignoring canon... canon is in disagreement with itself.
The visual graph contains Delta and Gamma Quadrant species DNA for Dal (species that couldn't come into contact with the Alpha Quadrant in 2366). And its supposed to include species 8472 DNA as well? A species that lives in another DIMENSION and didn't even set foot into the Milky Way (and our dimension) until 2373?

The first few times Dal's DNA was mentioned (episodes 15 and 18), the characters only mentioned 26 alien species (but no one mentioned what they were).

But then, VA Janeway said to the SF tribunal that Dal's DNA contains samples of 26 different alien species that are part of UFP.
Either she way lying (and I'm sure she wouldn't because they aren't stupid and would have looked over the data themselves), or she was wrong (in which case it would make her negligent and weaken her defense of Dal).

I'd say the graph was wrong, and Dal's DNA was supposed to include samples from 26 species part of UFP at the time (so it may have been a small retcon).
 
This may have been missed since it was the last post on the previous page.



So the graphic doesn't show what Dal's genome actually contains and the timing of when particular species are discovered doesn't matter.
But if you rewatch the episode at 7:58 you will see the DNA helix collapse in to component species, which are all linked in a genetic tree and connected to the profile pic of Dal. Maybe the animation team misinterpreted the writers intent? The holographic display looked pretty final to me, like ancestry.com results. I took it as Dr Jago reading out the names of species that she recognised from this genetic tree. This is how it all came across on screen to me at least. Perhaps the writers thought that they had made Dal’s genetic origins *too* controversial and lob sided towards non Federation aligned species and adversaries so decided to back track on Twitter. :shrug:

Regardless, there is still a mystery to Dal’s origin and purpose so I hope that we find out some day. Just as long as he doesn’t turn in to some form of devil when he is fully adult though…
7266694F-BB94-4EC3-9A7D-FB8E6B31E6B5.jpegIt is almost like the writers are subliminally trying to give Dal sinister undertones, like insinuating that he could potentially turn in to a monster… though alternatively maybe they are trying to prove that we should not judge people by their appearance or race/species/ancestry? That would be a good Star Trek moral to take from this. :techman:
 
8566D2B8-6959-4CE5-AD89-7F3F0121649A.jpeg
All of these species/groups are static and branch from a picture of Dal like an interconnected chain of his DNA after it was analysed. Each species emblem dropped out from a three dimensional helix of his DNA. This analysis only took a few seconds and these named species all remain static throughout the whole scene, they do not change, disappear or move in any way to symbolise that these are not Dal’s final DNA results. There is nothing to separate the species that Dal is confirmed as being verbally by Doctor Jago with those that there is no verbal confirmation of in these graphics.

I have no doubt that this represents Dal’s DNA genetic breakdown.

The writers can not change canon on Twitter, they need to do so within the episodes themselves on screen so if they are not happy with it in hindsight they need to retcon this in a future episode. We should not need to cross reference scenes with Twitter comments to put a standalone production in to true context - what is shown is shown. Some fans may not even have Twitter.

I see no problem with Dal’s ancestry even if the writers may now be trying to back track it - Dal can standalone as an individual and should not be judged for his genetics, race or ancestry. This should be a story point.
 
I mean, they're already retconning because the knowledge of some species would not be known to the Federation at that time. So that's something that needs clarification as to what Dal's genetic sequencing means, because at this point in time it makes no sense as presented on screen.
 
I mean, they're already retconning because the knowledge of some species would not be known to the Federation at that time. So that's something that needs clarification as to what Dal's genetic sequencing means, because at this point in time it makes no sense as presented on screen.
Unless there is more to Dal then we know story wise on a galactic level, like he is some form of genetic puzzle for example - he could be a ‘key’ to something that a historical geneticist was putting together for a purpose? We do not know Dal’s original origin story, we just know that he is a living genetic construct or hybrid - purpose: unknown.
 
Unless there is more to Dal then we know story wise on a galactic level, like he is some form of genetic puzzle for example - he could be a ‘key’ to something that a historical geneticist was putting together for a purpose? We do not know Dal’s original origin story, we just know that he is a living genetic construct or hybrid - purpose: unknown.
Which makes speculation fruitless since the purpose is unknown, yet he the supposed brain child of a Soong disciple with genetics. At this point in time it's more confusing than interesting.
 
Which makes speculation fruitless since the purpose is unknown, yet he the supposed brain child of a Soong disciple with genetics. At this point in time it's more confusing than interesting.
I am sure that Dal’s character arc is well plotted out, at least his overarching one. The writers surely are not making all of this sh*t up as they go along. I believe this because I think that the whole Vau N’Akat and Solum storyline was planned well in advance by a talented and imaginative independent science fiction/fantasy writer. Someone could correct my speculation here if I am wrong, but I believe that the whole Vau N’Akat/Solum storyline was separate from Star Trek at one point, I think that it was an original story that a sci fi author probably failed to get published to a mainstream audience via other means, but it was accepted in to a Star Trek series and became a part of Prodigy and therefore Star Trek canon. The whole Vau N’akat storyline is quite sophisticated and could have been its own separate Science Fiction story away from Star Trek in my opinion, but luckily it became a part of Star Trek lore in this toon. I could be wrong, it is just a feeling that I get about that particular storyline as it is very generic yet still imaginative sci-fi fantasy . It is almost like Prodigy season 1 was built around a concept for a separate sci-fi fantasy series which was not Star Trek, but a Star Trek producer read the story and built a spin-off around it as they realised it had a lot of potential? I love this show, I am not being critical… though this is just a feeling that I get about the season 1 arc. A win for Trek either way, nonetheless. :shrug:

PS, could someone please change the thread title from Del to Dal? It is beginning to irk me.
 
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ut if you rewatch the episode at 7:58 you will see the DNA helix collapse in to component species, which are all linked in a genetic tree and connected to the profile pic of Dal.
And the writers aid it wasn't representing everything in him, just comparisons.
 
Didn't they say he has genetic elements of 26 different species? And doesn't the display show 26 symbols? ;)
 
Didn't they say he has genetic elements of 26 different species? And doesn't the display show 26 symbols? ;)

Yes and yes.
Here's the problem though: some of those samples are supposedly from the Gamma and Delta Quadrants, 3 to 8 years BEFORE those species were even encountered (and if the 8472 insignia is even canon - aka, we don't know it actually represents them - they don't even live in the same dimension as proteges of Soong do.

Dal was stated to be 17 years old by the time PRO started (2383)... which means, he was created in 2366.

There's just no way he could possibly have samples from the Dominion, the Vidiians, 8472, etc.

VA Janeway at the end mentioned that Dal's DNA contains 26 samples from species that are part of the Federation... and this would be the ONLY thing that works (if it retcons the graph) because I don't see Soong's protege's going around the galaxy years before and encountering all those species and even going to another dimension for a species no one even knew existed (and takes extreme care to make sure things from the Milky Way do not contaminate their realm).
 
Didn't they say he has genetic elements of 26 different species? And doesn't the display show 26 symbols? ;)
Yeah, but Janeway said 26 Federation species. Not all of those are federation species.

(if it retcons the graph)
One of the writers said the display did not represent all the species in Dal genome. But he could have just been trying to hand wave away an FX error.

Probably either a miscommunication or there was a no direction given to FX team.
 
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There's just no way he could possibly have samples from the Dominion, the Vidiians, 8472, etc.
I had some good ideas here, I know that it is a long post so you may not have read my ideas, hehe.

There are always… possibilities, especially in a work of fiction.
VA Janeway at the end mentioned that Dal's DNA contains 26 samples from species that are part of the Federation...
Perhaps this was the retcon added later in the episode post production? It would have been too expensive to render the animation again though. :shrug:
 
I had some good ideas here, I know that it is a long post so you may not have read my ideas, hehe.

There are always… possibilities, especially in a work of fiction.

I've read the suggestions you put in place, but I also countered them with the fact that the protege's of Soong simply wouldn't have the means and probably the motivation to go around the galaxy.
Stumbling upon TW conduits (unless you know what you're looking for - like the Hansens) would be downright nigh impossible prior to 2366 unless you knew what you were looking for (let alone opening them) ... and even for the Hansens (who were actively searching for the Borg) it was difficult to find a cube (and go through a TW conduit while following it)... not to mention extremely dangerous.

Also, I just don't see the protege's of Soong being able to get their hands on Vidiian, Krenim and other DQ species DNA.
The Vidians would have hunted protege's of Soong for their body parts (and were similarly advanced as the UFP and more advanced in medical science).

Krenim DNA... even VOY couldn't get its hands on a DNA sample from the Krenim. Perhaps in the original timeline when they were on friendly terms with the Zhaal... but not after the temporal reset (which involved a few lines of polite exhange over a viewscreen).

I doubt the Protege's of Soong would have been able to reach and roam the DQ in the first half to mid 24th century looking for DNA samples.

Plus, I already mentioned the fact that species 8472 wasn't even in the Milky Way galaxy before 2374 (and they only 'visited' briefly to fight the Borg).

And as for acquiring Dominion DNA... depends from which species (there are multiple species as part of the Dominion seeing its a political organisation and not a species name).
Odo's sample may have been smuggled off world by Dr. Moira, but I suspect the Cardassians would have prevented something like this as they would want to keep any and all potential advantages to themselves.

Perhaps this was the retcon added later in the episode post production? It would have been too expensive to render the animation again though. :shrug:

That's how I treat it.
It makes a LOT more sense that Dal was created in 2366 as a result of mixing DNA of 26 known UFP member species. The DNA samples are readily available, and the protege's of Soong could get as many as they wished and then defected from the UFP to conduct genetic experiments in seclusion resulting in Dal's creation (because otherwise, you enter into a convoluted galactic search for samples of unknown origin and species that no one - including even Protege's of Soong could have known existed prior to this time frame - and if they were scientists, they likely wouldn't be chasing unconfirmed tales of some unknown species residing thousands of LY's away... they'd work with that they already had - and UFP already had a HUGE amount of varied species who possess unique atributes to work with).
 
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Dal was stated to be 17 years old by the time PRO started (2383)... which means, he was created in 2366.

Maybe he's not, though. Maybe he appears to be physically 17 years old, but chronologically is much younger. He's got Klingon DNA and Klingons appear to age faster as we saw with Alexander. The children on Miri's planet were just entering puberty yet were centuries old from a chronological standpoint.

In fiction clones or artificially genetically created beings rarely start from an embryo and chronology age normally into adulthood. More often than not these individuals are depicted as being created and taking their first breath as adolescent or young adults.

Dal might be only 5 years old chronologically.

Or, as others pointed out above, Soong's protoge could have traveled through the galaxy collecting samples Starfleet and the Federation never heard of until Voyager returned. Maybe Dal really is 17 years chronologically.

Maybe he was created in the future and sent back in time.

Not the first time there were apparent or obvious or perceived inconsistencies or supposed canon violations. Just a few weeks ago people complained about the Kazon appearing in PRO. Mental gymnastics were on display to explain the irregularities and inconsistencies of the Romulan Neutral Zone this season.
 
The whole illegal genetic engineering thing is dumb and whoever came up with it should be fired. Certain types? Sure, complete blank ban = dumb.
 
Maybe he's not, though. Maybe he appears to be physically 17 years old, but chronologically is much younger. He's got Klingon DNA and Klingons appear to age faster as we saw with Alexander. The children on Miri's planet were just entering puberty yet were centuries old from a chronological standpoint.

In fiction clones or artificially genetically created beings rarely start from an embryo and chronology age normally into adulthood. More often than not these individuals are depicted as being created and taking their first breath as adolescent or young adults.

Dal might be only 5 years old chronologically.

Possible but unlikely.
Given Dal's DNA base is Human augment, and has dna from 26 other species, its also possible in order to reach 'equilibrium' and get a viable specimen, a 'standard' maturation cycle of a regular human would result in a 'compromise'.
Furthermore, VA Janeway made a note that Dal wasn't 'enhanced' in any way (not really)..

Or, as others pointed out above, Soong's protoge could have traveled through the galaxy collecting samples Starfleet and the Federation never heard of until Voyager returned. Maybe Dal really is 17 years chronologically.

Maybe he was created in the future and sent back in time.

Not the first time there were apparent or obvious or perceived inconsistencies or supposed canon violations. Just a few weeks ago people complained about the Kazon appearing in PRO. Mental gymnastics were on display to explain the irregularities and inconsistencies of the Romulan Neutral Zone this season.

Soong's protege's travelling the galaxy and collecting samples prior to 2366 doesn't add up. There was no record of TW conduits prior to that year, and Warp travel would have been way too slow.
Soong's protege's were part of the Federation at some point. They defected from the Federation... which suggests they did that in order to create Dal... and it would make sense if that happened 17 or 18 years ago (maybe even 20 years ago - to allow enough time so they can create Dal from existing 26 UFP member species DNA samples).

Again, Species 8472 doesn't even reside in the Milky Way, and their first appearance in this galaxy happened in 2374... prior to this, they had 0 reason to leave their realm... and no one in the Milky Way (sans perhaps the Borg) would have known that 8472 MIGHT have even existed.
VOY wouldn't be able to acquire samples of that DNA until 2374 at the earlier.

Sure, time travel could explain Dal's creation if he was made in the future and then sent back to the past... but I don't think that's what's happening here.

Also, VA Janeway said Dal's DNA contains bits from 26 UFP member species... last time I chekced, the Q, Krenim, Vidiians, Dominion, etc. are NOT part of UFP... neither are the Q.

Whoever put together that visual representation did so either incorrectly, or the writers retconned that bit out so that Dal's creation actually makes sense by saying he's a combo of 26 UFP member species.
 
The art team was probably told to put 26 species on that screen with no specific direction of which.
 
We know he has Klingon DNA, because the ridges showed up on his forehead, and they aren't members of the Federation.
 
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