The Gorn…

[blssdwlf]

I posted this in another thread but here is an interview with Akiva Goldsman and he more specifically says he/they "will deviate/re-write canon if they believe it will get them a good story" so trying to match what you see in SNW with TOS isn't really possible, IMHO. SNW already deviates so just enjoy them both as separate histories with different versions of the Gorn.

https://www.metacritic.com/news/sta...2-finale-guest-star-canon-strange-new-worlds/

"Fans have really loved the consistency of canon over the course of the Star Trek franchise. I know that can be both a boon for story ideas and character development, and can also be kind of an anchor for storytellers in your position. So, how do you approach it now, especially given that you're bringing in some characters from Kirk's Enterprise and some that have allusions to characters such as Khan?

We love canon. We try very hard to adhere to it, and yet we probably won't destroy a really good story over it. We'll try to body English around it, but fundamentally the spirit of canon is, to us, more important than the letter of the law.

I know that sounds vaguely like an excuse. And in fairness, we really do try very hard to stick to it, but now and then we deviate. And we do it because we thought about it and we believe that we're better off attempting to rewrite canon, which I know sounds sacrilegious, but canon was an accident. When they made "The Cage," they weren't like, "And then we'll cut it into two parts and make it 'The Menagerie' and Star Trek backstory is born!" That was not the purpose. It's a lot of people like us and people who will come after us who will hopefully do their best to stick with what we did and then don't be slaves to it if it gets in their way. "​

 

[fireproof78]

but fundamentally the spirit of canon is, to us, more important than the letter of the law.

Oh, Akiva, you got some 'splainin' to do.

 

[drt]

We shouldn't pretend this is new, they've been doing it since 1979.

 

[Dukhat]

I posted this in another thread but here is an interview with Akiva Goldsman and he more specifically says he/they "will deviate/re-write canon if they believe it will get them a good story" so trying to match what you see in SNW with TOS isn't really possible, IMHO. SNW already deviates so just enjoy them both as separate histories with different versions of the Gorn.

https://www.metacritic.com/news/sta...2-finale-guest-star-canon-strange-new-worlds/

"Fans have really loved the consistency of canon over the course of the Star Trek franchise. I know that can be both a boon for story ideas and character development, and can also be kind of an anchor for storytellers in your position. So, how do you approach it now, especially given that you're bringing in some characters from Kirk's Enterprise and some that have allusions to characters such as Khan?

We love canon. We try very hard to adhere to it, and yet we probably won't destroy a really good story over it. We'll try to body English around it, but fundamentally the spirit of canon is, to us, more important than the letter of the law.

I know that sounds vaguely like an excuse. And in fairness, we really do try very hard to stick to it, but now and then we deviate. And we do it because we thought about it and we believe that we're better off attempting to rewrite canon, which I know sounds sacrilegious, but canon was an accident. When they made "The Cage," they weren't like, "And then we'll cut it into two parts and make it 'The Menagerie' and Star Trek backstory is born!" That was not the purpose. It's a lot of people like us and people who will come after us who will hopefully do their best to stick with what we did and then don't be slaves to it if it gets in their way. "​

That's great. They shouldn't be slavishly beholden to 'canon' if it gets in the way of the story they want to tell. But if that's their attitude, then they should have just declared their show to be a reboot from the get-go.

 

[Warped9]

But if that's their attitude, then they should have just declared their show to be a reboot from the get-go.

Sounds familiar.

 

[blssdwlf]

We shouldn't pretend this is new, they've been doing it since 1979.

True... Akiva just happens to be more open about it which is better than the "no, no, it's always been this way but now with better budget" line. It looks and played differently because it is different. Hopefully that'll make discussions a bit simpler.

 

[fireproof78]

We shouldn't pretend this is new, they've been doing it since 1979.

Oh, it's not new. It's just new that it rubs fans so negatively. Or, we at least witness to it more frequently

That's great. They shouldn't be slavishly beholden to 'canon' if it gets in the way of the story they want to tell. But if that's their attitude, then they should have just declared their show to be a reboot from the get-go.

They fear the fan base too much at this point.

 

[johnnybear]

I think they already have trampled the idea the Gorn were a mystery to Kirk

The theory only works if we accept the new series is set in another reality. Kirk didn't know whom the attacking aliens were or their name until the Metrons short circuited both the Enterprise's and the Gorn ship's drives!

Another possibility is that Cestus is not frequently surveyed by the Gorn. In TOS, a planet like Delta Vega only sees a ship once every 20 years. Imagine the Gorn only sends a ship to check Cestus once a year. Plenty of time for a human outpost to be setup between Gorn checkups.

Which is what I said earlier on!
JB

 

[Nerroth]

I don't quite remember, but I might (or might not) have posted a reply to a topic like this one, here in the TOS sub-board, not that long go. So apologies in advance if I'm repeating myself from... whatever thread that might have been.

For what it's worth, the way the Star Fleet Universe tells it, the encounter at Cestus III was a case of two brash, young captains firing first and facing embarrassing questions later. Yet while the SFU take on things does not include the Metrons (who do not exist in that universe; the on-screen episode is treated as a "tri-video dramatization"), the tragedy of First Contact was unwittingly set up by prior events which took place on either side of what would later become the Federation-Gorn border.

On the Federation side, the region of UFP space facing to "northeast" is covered by Star Fleet's Fifth Fleet. Yet, with ongoing pressure on the Kzinti and Klingon borders, plus the need to keep watch on the Romulan and Tholian borders, this area slipped out of notice by comparison.for much of Federation history.

Further, Cestus III lies beyond the boundary of Federation-claimed space, as outlined in the self-proclaimed Y102 Border Declaration. The Federation Council and Assembly were divided on this issue: those on one side of each chamber argued that, since there was no sign of a star-faring empire in that direction, it was better to get there before the Romulans (to the "south-west" of the UFP) did. Whereas on the other side of the debate, it was argued that the principle of the Declaration was important; that there were still plenty of habitable worlds on their side of the demarcation arc; and that it was premature to assume that there wasn't anyone out there who might object to either Federation or Romulan expansion into the area.

Meanwhile, by the time of First Contact with the Federation, the Gorns were 0 for 2 in terms of encountering new star-faring species. Be it the bird-like Paravians - who were themselves descended from a population of Gorns seeded on their home world, yet who were fanatically determined to exterminate all "demonic" reptilian beings they could get their talons on - or the Romulans - who "merely" sought to enslave the Gorns, so as to further their goal of conquering the entire Milky Way Galaxy - the track record hadn't been a great one. While the Paravians were out of the picture at this point in time, the Romulans had launched four full-scale wars, plus no end of "privateer" raids across the Romulan-Gorn border.

So when a brash, young Gorn captain arrived at Cestus III and saw "Romulans" (i.e. Vulcans, who were among the colonists) on the surface, he rashly assumed the worst and ordered the settlement to be destroyed. Which, in turn, led a brash, young Federation captain to order his ship into battle with the alien ship he had just observed destroying the Cestus III colony.

However, the battle was a stalemate, as the ships were evenly matched. As more ships from both sides rushed into the area, diplomats from each government hurried over to try and establish some degree of communication - when it was eventually realized hat the whole thing had been a tragic misunderstanding.

For their part, the Federation apologized for unwittingly infringing on Gorn territory. In exchange, the Gorns paid reparations for destroying the colony, imprisoned their brash, young captain for his use of excessive force, and readily agreed to a demarcated border following the arc of the Y102 Border Declaration..

Thus, from this misfortune was born the basis for a lasting Federation-Gorn alliance. And, indeed, for the Skoleans, a chameleon-like Federation member species whose home world is close to the new border, establishing a particularly strong relationship with their fellow reptilians - to the point of later serving as "mercenary" attack shuttle pilots in service to the Confederation navy.

 

[Warped9]

I don’t think I would call Kirk’s actions in this instance brash. An unknown alien force destroyed a Federation outpost and then immediately tried to do the same to a landing party and a Federation starship. Kirk responded as his responsibility and training required him to do. No Starfleet inquiry would fault him for his actions.

 

[johnnybear]

Paravians? Romulan/Gorn border? Romulan vessels attacking Gorn colonies?
What story or universe is this from?
JB

 

[Nerroth]

I don’t think I would call Kirk’s actions in this instance brash. An unknown alien force destroyed a Federation outpost and then immediately tried to do the same to a landing party and a Federation starship. Kirk responded as his responsibility and training required him to do. No Starfleet inquiry would fault him for his actions.

The "brash, young captain" line is more of an oblique reference to a character from the "tri-video dramatization" who cannot be portrayed directly in the SFU (per ADB's arcane licence with Paramount), rather than a judgement call on his actions in this encounter. Although Star Fleet does consider this captain as having "a penchant for getting into trouble", regardless of whether he started it or not...

Paravians? Romulan/Gorn border? Romulan vessels attacking Gorn colonies?
What story or universe is this from?
JB

In Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's seminal Star Fleet Technical Manual, the United Federation of Planets is shown as covering a circular territory, with the Klingon Empire on the "south-west" flank and the Romulan Star Empire on the "south-east". Cestus III - as well as the Gorns (plural s) - are shown in the "north-east" direction, coreward of Romulan space.

The Star Fleet Universe clams to draw from the same "U.S. Air Force data tapes" used as the in-universe conceit behind the Technical Manual itself - due to the arcane licensing agreements Amarillo Design Bureau have with the Franz Joseph estate and with Paramount. So, in the SFU, the Milky Way Galaxy looks like this; the Federation/Romulan/Gorn border region is shown in more detail here; and Cestus III is located on that latter map in hex 4007, on the Gorn side of what (after a treaty signed with the Federation) became the Federation-Gorn Neutral Zone.

The Paravians are one of the many species "native" to the SFU; there are alternate timelines in which they remain a power in this region of the galaxy, but they are considered to be extinct in the Alpha Octant of the "modern" era in the "standard" SFU timeline. (There is a more recent art piece which portrays the Paravians as having more of a "bird-Gorn" look, complete with Gorn-like eyes.)

I don't want to risk derailing this thread much more than I already have - so if it helps, there is a thread elsewhere on the boards which goes into the technology of the SFU in more detail.

 

[Shawnster]

So, how come the Enterprise sensors did not register the outpost destruction? Why did it take the landing party actually beaming into the ruins before they discovered the outpost was destroyed? At the very least shouldn't transporter sensors have detected the destruction when they locked on to a beam down location?

 

[fireproof78]

So, how come the Enterprise sensors did not register the outpost destruction? Why did it take the landing party actually beaming into the ruins before they discovered the outpost was destroyed? At the very least shouldn't transporter sensors have detected the destruction when they locked on to a beam down location?

And why wasn't the ship detected earlier? One would imagine such an attack would register on something!

 

[Warped9]

Apparently the Enterprise wasn’t expecting anything so it wasn’t actively scanning for anything. The Gorn ship might also have managed to hide (behind the planet or a moon?) until ready to attack.

 

[johnnybear]

Obviously the Gorn knew how to camouflage the area destroyed in their bombardment? The Gorn vessel may have had a type of cloaking device, but probably didn't and lets not get into that anyway and Warped is probably correct that they were hiding on the other side of Cestus III, like the Enterprise did at Neural later on!
Plus I do not believe that the Gorn Hegemony was located next to the Romulan Empire or the Klingons! It wasn't stated on screen and as we know the Klingons hadn't been invented at the time of the Arena episode and the Romulans too could have just been a one time enemy! We know from TNG that the Tholians are close to the Klingon borders as are the Romulans and both are located in the Beta quadrant!
JB

 

[Nerroth]

Plus I do not believe that the Gorn Hegemony was located next to the Romulan Empire or the Klingons! It wasn't stated on screen and as we know the Klingons hadn't been invented at the time of the Arena episode and the Romulans too could have just been a one time enemy! We know from TNG that the Tholians are close to the Klingon borders as are the Romulans and both are located in the Beta quadrant!
JB

The Star Fleet Technical Manual was published in 1975, long before there was the concept of a "Gorn Hegemony", or indeed of a "Beta Quadrant" for it to be placed in. Although, if I recall correctly, the Star Trek Star Charts - which, though not canon in and of themselves, have been drawn from in recent Franchise series as inspiration for some of the star maps they have shown on-screen - placed them rimward (or "south") of the Klingon Empire.

But as it so happens, the Technical Manual - and, by extension, the Star Fleet Universe - place the Tholians at the crossroads between Federation, Klingon, and Romulan space. Although the Star Charts placed them in the Alpha Quadrant, not all that far from Breen space.

 

[johnnybear]

But we never saw or heard that on screen so it's more of a fan service than actual canon, right?
JB

 

[Holopat]

I'm a TOS fan. ( I also consider a good bit of TAS could be included in TOS canon.) It was disappointing to see the subsequent series were less and less respectful of what the fans had loved, championed and respected. Even many or most fanzine editors in the early years (and I started buying them during the initial show run) were careful to respect canon, or indicate that a zine was AU. But starting with the movies, the movie and show runners ... not so much. Even with the TMP - it was ridiculous to conclude Kirk would have submitted to being kicked upstairs. And that Spock would have abandoned all he'd learned about himself after 15+ years in Starfleet. I was disappointed with Kirk's defeated character, letting himself be pushed into a desk job. That's not Kirk. And Nimoy, instead of playing Spock with the nuance that he did in TOS, was so wooden. As if he had forgotten the shades of Spock's character that the fan's understood and remembered. I don't mean to be contentious. But I can't be the only one who would have liked to see Kirk take another five year mission. Not the travesty that was the purported fifteen years in between TOS And TMP.

 

[fireproof78]

Not the travesty that was the purported fifteen years in between TOS And TMP.

15 years? I never heard that!