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The Genesis Device.

No, i'm not talking about the Star Trek one.

I think it would make sense to build some kind of capsule designed to orbit the Earth that contained frozen genetically modified Human sperm and eggs which, in the event of a planet wide catastrophe which wiped out all human life, would fall back to Earth and begin fertilising the eggs and growing human life again in an onboard laboratory, included within the capsule will be a database of all human knowledge and achievement which would one day be found again when human civilisation once again began to flourish.
Now the technology would be beyond what we have now but I dont think we're far off.

What do you think?
 
Why would they have to be genetically modified?

And how can children survive and learn without adults to teach and watch over them?
 
And how can children survive and learn without adults to teach and watch over them?

They can't. Some stories have proposed robot nannies, but human infants deprived of human touch and affection suffer serious, even fatal brain damage due to the lack of stimulation. We're a social species, with interpersonal interaction as essential to our development as physical movement.

The sensible way to hedge against global catastrophe is to colonize space, not just with gametes, but with living, growing communities.
 
Why would they have to be genetically modified?

So they could grow quickly from being babys so when the capsule opens it releases humans of at least a certain age so they would have a greater chance of survival.

And how can children survive and learn without adults to teach and watch over them?
They would unfortunately have to go through the very long process of evolving again. What I mean is, they'd be like animals but eventually their intelligence after a few thousand years or millenia will create something resembling civilisation again. They will be humans afterall.

You know we do have repositories of seeds and possibly DNA in deep freeze for something like this, but it would be useless if there are not people around to plant them.

We could always automate it so at the push of a button a 5 or 30 year timer begins which once run down would shoot seeds up into the atmosphere and would begin growing test tube baby animals. ;)
 
^^Again, why would such a risky and overly convoluted process be preferable to simply establishing human colonies on other worlds of the Solar System? The most reliable approaches are the most straightforward ones. You're overthinking this.
 
^^Again, why would such a risky and overly convoluted process be preferable to simply establishing human colonies on other worlds of the Solar System? The most reliable approaches are the most straightforward ones. You're overthinking this.

At no point have I said colonys shouldn't be established, in fact in a thread in TNZ entitled 'McCain would like to see a man on Mars' I have argued via several posts that we need to get a man on mars as soon as possible in order to pave the way for a colony in case anything catastrophic happens on Earth and to ensure we don't suffer from overpopulation and depletion of resources. I simply think another possibility would be to have some kind of Genesis device just in case, so you are making a false assumption that I don't believe we should establish colonys aswell.

What if aliens like those on Independence day arrive and wipe us all out including our colonies, at least we'll have the Genesis device as a backup. ;)
Catch my drift?
 
Okay...but you can mix the genetic material, but where does the embryo implant and develop? When it's "born" how is it fed, cared for? It's going to have no skills and die a rapid death once released from it's robot nanny. It won't know how to do ANYTHING, what to eat, what not to, nor how to defend itself.
 
Okay...but you can mix the genetic material, but where does the embryo implant and develop? When it's "born" how is it fed, cared for? It's going to have no skills and die a rapid death once released from it's robot nanny. It won't know how to do ANYTHING, what to eat, what not to, nor how to defend itself.

Who the hell says so, we are all animals and animals have instincts the moment they are born, if you're hungry you'll eat, if you're thirsty you'll drink, and as I said there will be an onboard lab and the embryo will be grown by artificial means.
There's absolutely no reason why this wouldn't work when technology gets developed further.
You're all assuming that humans are incapable of learning skills on their own and they wont need to be cared for because when the child is released it will already have grown to a certain age like I already said, babys wouldnt even be able to crawl and will obviously die, a child of a certain age would have developed enough to be able to move about.

Humans started off somewhere ya know, we didn't always have civilisation.
 
But we always had parents. Sorry but your premise is ridiculous. Every species has some period of time where their young require the participation of their parents to survive. In human beings, this is particularly long. We learn many of our necessary survival skills from our parents and peers, by imitation. Unless these "robot nannies" can act like a human enough for the baby to learn what it needs to for many years, its not gonna work.
 
Let's see. I'm going to propose the biggest single, technological hurdle you have to overcome is the artificial womb and birthing process. Let's dispense with genetic modification ... the original blueprint worked fairly well the first time and you don't want to add too many risky ideas to this project.

So you have a lab that orbits continuously until the following conditions are met: 1) an arbitrarily long period of time has passed without contact from the ground and 2) the conditions on the surface look safe enough to land.

I'd suggest an entire arc project that precedes the descent of the human genesis lab so that important plants and animals can be seeded on the planet just in case a lot of them are gone. When it signals the right conditions on the surface are met, then the human labs descend.

Once your system has birthed your new humans, you'll want to raise them. Dumping a bunch of squalling infants into the wild might not be in their best interest, so you'll need an automated day-care facility with cooing, encouraging avatars tending to the children and teaching them basic things like language and social interaction. The whole system has to be able to handle whatever these kids dish out ... children are remarkably successful at improvising creative malfunctions in machinery.

During this period, they'll be taught to speak, read, write, calculate, and reason. When they're able, libraries of digital information should be made available to them, teaching them about their history and how to cope as successful adults in a wild world. This library would also serve to help resurrect civilization, instructing the children on basic morality, political systems, and justice.

True, we could cut corners and hope that some kids might survive after being turned loose from a baby factory, but if you're going to go to the effort of designing a system that could gestate zygotes artificially in the first place, why not put some care into ensuring the resulting babies have a better than 1% chance of living? Besides, if you've got artificial wombs, I assume there are other technologies that are similarly advanced, so we can make plush-toy robots and user interfaces for computers that can engage young minds. Oh ... and computers and robots that can fix each other without accidentally crushing the craniums of curious toddlers.

Hmmm ...

If the dangerous robots were presented to the young children as monsters, they'd be instinctively avoided, allowing construction and repair machinery to be somewhat simpler. An occasional fatality is inevitable.

It's a big program, Fire. Very costly if you hope to have a shot at resurrecting humanity. And I'd imagine everyone from socialists to capitalists to theocrats would want a hand in the education software that raises the new population.

I expect that Christopher is probably right ... spreading out across the Solar system is the best way to ensure survival. But I'm a big fan of diversity, not just in the token PC sense, but in using the biological sense as a model for all activities, so I say, let's explore this as an option. Just in case there's something else that happens to the rest of us.
 
And how can children survive and learn without adults to teach and watch over them?

They can't. Some stories have proposed robot nannies, but human infants deprived of human touch and affection suffer serious, even fatal brain damage due to the lack of stimulation. We're a social species, with interpersonal interaction as essential to our development as physical movement.

The sensible way to hedge against global catastrophe is to colonize space, not just with gametes, but with living, growing communities.

How about a android nanny that has the downloaded memories of an actual human being?
 
The most preposterous aspect of this farce is the aforementioned magic technology needed to make it a success. With that kind of science at our disposal there are far simpler, direct, and robust alternatives one can dream up.

Why not have a group of genetically “pure” individuals, raised from birth for the purpose of recolonization in the event of a world wide catastrophe, placed in suspended animation on board a vehicle with a long orbit around the Sun that would return to Earth after certain criteria had been satisfied (as mentioned earlier – no communication from Earth and planetary conditions suitable for life). The best education and physical training would be provided to these people before they were stored away in this “ark”, which would include everything from tools and clothing to a vast databank encompassing all of mankind’s knowledge. Each would be skilled in survival and would have a role to play in the “new world” – some would be skilled in trades and physically demanding activities, others in more intellectually demanding, but necessary, roles.
 
Ex Nihilo, what is specifically magical about machines raising children? As Trekkers, haven't we been beaten over the head with the notion that we ourselves are essentially biological machines in the first place? You're absolutely right that there are better ways to solve this problem, but can't we entertain the hypothetical scenario without the hostility?
 
The most preposterous aspect of this farce is the aforementioned magic technology needed to make it a success. With that kind of science at our disposal there are far simpler, direct, and robust alternatives one can dream up.

Why not have a group of genetically “pure” individuals, raised from birth for the purpose of recolonization in the event of a world wide catastrophe, placed in suspended animation on board a vehicle with a long orbit around the Sun that would return to Earth after certain criteria had been satisfied (as mentioned earlier – no communication from Earth and planetary conditions suitable for life). The best education and physical training would be provided to these people before they were stored away in this “ark”, which would include everything from tools and clothing to a vast databank encompassing all of mankind’s knowledge. Each would be skilled in survival and would have a role to play in the “new world” – some would be skilled in trades and physically demanding activities, others in more intellectually demanding, but necessary, roles.

Because there's no reason to believe that cryogenics would ever work or that suspended animation can be a reality, on the other hand our genetic knowledge and genetic engineering ability is making advances every day not to mention our ablility to grow test tube babies. The idea of growing new humans artificially in a lab is more feasable, realistic and true to real science than suspended animation, which is pure science fiction with little to no technology available today to prove it's even possible.

Secondly, a craft in orbit of the Earth makes more sense than something being sent on a pointless journey around the sun where anything could go wrong with it, especially when it tries to return to Earth.
 
Why would they have to be genetically modified?

And how can children survive and learn without adults to teach and watch over them?

Make it a generation ship then instead of a satellite, like ex nihilo suggested. A select group of humans to stay alive up there to wait for a planetary disaster to come and go, then repopulate the Earth with humans and some other bits and pieces kept dormant on board.
 
Ex Nihilo, what is specifically magical about machines raising children? As Trekkers, haven't we been beaten over the head with the notion that we ourselves are essentially biological machines in the first place? You're absolutely right that there are better ways to solve this problem, but can't we entertain the hypothetical scenario without the hostility?
The purpose of my wording was not to say that the technologies that Fire is suggesting are impossible, but rather beyond our reach at this point as to be nearly “magic”. In the original post Fire suggest this device should be built using the present tense, indicating that this is a project he feels should be initiated now. The flaw in this is that the design he suggests requires the advanced maturation of technologies from very different fields that it makes little to no sense in attempting a project like this in the here and now. Financially and politically it could not endure. In addition to that point, as I stated, with a technology level able to develop a successful program using his design there are more simple and robust alternatives that follow the edict of KISS.

Star Trek is not wrong in its assertion that humans are machines of biology, but the concept of a generation of children being raised solely by machines is ludicrous. Why? Studies have shown that the caress and attention of a real biologic counterpart is integral to the healthy development of the human brain (as Christopher pointed out). In studies conducted on, I believe Rhesus Macaques, the scientists raised groups using different forms of isolation and interactions with artificial mothers. In all cases there were observed aberrations in the social and physical development of the test groups. Although the sophistication of the artificial mothers varied and those raised by puppet like, interactive mothers seemed to show the least distortion, in the end they all demonstrated behavior unlike their naturally raised cohorts. Another example is the long term behavioral issues that have been observed in children who spent their formative years in institutional settings. My point is, humans require other humans to develop properly. No matter how lifelike a simulated caregiver could be, they would never be able to raise a child from infancy that would be close to a “normally” socialized person.

As to the hostility aspect, there is none to be found in my post. My language may have been cutting, but there is a point to be made. I remained civil and did not directly question Fire’s intelligence. In addition, I believe the brusque nature of my response is sauce for the goose. Please look no further than Fire’s own responses to dissenting opinion if you want to see hostility.

Because there's no reason to believe that cryogenics would ever work or that suspended animation can be a reality, on the other hand our genetic knowledge and genetic engineering ability is making advances every day not to mention our ablility to grow test tube babies. The idea of growing new humans artificially in a lab is more feasable, realistic and true to real science than suspended animation, which is pure science fiction with little to no technology available today to prove it's even possible.
I beg to differ with your observation.

Please point me in the direction of a scientific journal that reports on a study that shows we have unlocked, or are close to unlocking, the genetic key to aging that would allow for the rapid growth of test tube humans from infancy to an age of self sufficiency and then halt that rapid aging so that they do not succumb to the effects of a Hutchinson-Gilford Progeria like syndrome.

In turn, please let me point you to the research conducted on pigs at Massachusetts General Hospital using chilled saline as a replacement for blood, which resulted in a state of “induced hibernation”, or the experiments also conducted there using mice in which they were able to reduce their metabolism by a factor of ten using hydrogen sulfide. In both cases 90% the animals were revived without ill effect. Similar experiments have been conducted with dogs using the chilled solution as blood replacement by the University of Pittsburgh’s Safar Center for Resuscitation Research. In most cases the dogs were revived with no observable effects, but in some instances they returned in a catatonic zombie-like state. Finally, Mark Roth of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle has conducted successful “induced hibernation” in mice using the hydrogen sulfide technique.

I will concede and agree that we are not far from unlocking many aspects to aging using genetics; however, I do not believe the ability to selectively rapid grow humans, as you suggested, is coming anytime soon, and I believe it is disingenuous of you to dismiss suspended animation as science fiction with out, obviously, doing some investigation into the experiments currently being funded and conducted throughout the world.

Secondly, a craft in orbit of the Earth makes more sense than something being sent on a pointless journey around the sun where anything could go wrong with it, especially when it tries to return to Earth.
My suggestion as to the long elliptical orbit scenario is an insurance policy against “more likely” things like a gamma ray burst hitting the Earth, which would destroy or impair the satellites in orbit, or the less likely scenario you suggested in which aliens invaded and wiped us out – having our only and last hope for continuation of the species right on the doorstep could prove disastrous (wouldn’t the aliens be likely to destroy all of our detectable – i.e. close – orbiting technology?).
 
[chuckles] I'm sorry, Ex Nihilio, I wasn't referring to any trivial interpersonal nonsense when I talked about hostility, I meant hostility to the idea. It's an interesting thought experiment and engineering problem ... how do you raise children in the absence of adults but with an arbitrarily sufficient amount of preparation.

Now while macaques did show abnormal behavior when raised by synthetic proxies, how much of that behavior reflected actual harm? Contrary to Christopher's example of human babies deprived of touch showing physical abnormalities, here we're talking about creatures that were shown affection by the proxies. Neonates responded to simulated macaque behavior and sought reassurance and nurturing from the proxies. But just because they developed into mature animals with different social reactions, that doesn't mean they were actually harmed ... they simply grew up differently. If you raised a Japanese infant in a orthodox Jewish family, the infant would likely grow up with Jewish customs and beliefs.

I strenuously object to your statement,
No matter how lifelike a simulated caregiver could be, they would never be able to raise a child from infancy that would be close to a “normally” socialized person.
It's simply too absolute a position to have correlation with reality. A simple series of thought experiments should illustrate the weakness of your stance. Suppose the child was raised by R2D2 ... not humanoid and almost no social cues. I'd be amazed if any child raised in that condition came out remotely functional. But suppose it was raised by C3P0. Now we have a caregiver that can speak, hold its hand, change its diaper, and even teach it. True, there's no warmth in its touch (I assume), but there's a strong humanoid form that gives the neonate's instincts something to fix on. I'd still be surprised if the child grew up "normal" by societal standards, but I'd expect it'd do better than the R2 baby. Now let's raise another infant by Commander Data ... much more humanoid and in many ways indistinguishable to humans. Are you sure that child will grow up recognizably different? Especially if Data's got his emotion chip plugged in? Now let's go all out. Let's raise a child with an android indistinguishable from humans. Good social skills, appropriate emotional responses, something like "Bishop" from Aliens, but more maternal. Is this synthetic, nurturing surrogate insufficient for the baby's growth and development?

I'm not so sure.

Now let's take it from the reverse direction. A human mother, who, through accident or disease or crazed social science experiments conducted by trekkies, must lose key elements of humanoid features. An accident could leave a mother with no legs, one arm, no breasts, and a loss of bilateral symmetry in her face. She is functional in every other respect and determined to be a caregiver in spite of her injuries. Should she be refused? Let's give her minimal bionic replacements. Modern prosthetic limbs for mobility and some grasping functions. She's not as mobile and lacks the dexterity of C3P0 in drag, but she's still at least part human. Let's give her slightly science fictional prosthetics now that includes full finger dexterity and some haptic feedback, but also replace her remaining natural arm ... the injuries were worse, but she's got better medicine to survive. She even has some artificial organs. So she's less human than before, but more functional. Would you argue with me that she can't be a mom? Now let's go all out (again) and replace almost all of her physical body ... her bionic form is much more advanced than we can build today, and probably indistinguishable from reality at a distance and possibly up close. She still has a human brain and some glands, and maybe a kidney or something, but the rest is all synthetic. Can she raise a baby?

My point is a simple call to recognize a continuum of responses to different artificial caregivers. Even R2D2 would be a better caregiver than none at all, and if we have the tech to build that fiesty little droid, we should be able to make one that can do the job a bit better. Remember that a key evolutionary advantage of humans is their adaptability and while we might consider a child raised by robots socially retarded and scarred, the simple fact might be that that child has adapted fluidly to his or her environment and claimed it as his own.

Finally regarding the matter of the "magic" of Fire's proposed technology, you said, "In the original post Fire suggest this device should be built using the present tense, indicating that this is a project he feels should be initiated now." I'd like to point out that he said no such thing. His first post said:
Now the technology would be beyond what we have now but I dont think we're far off.
He plainly acknowledges it can't be done now. The "I don't think we're far off" bit is rather undefined and subjective. Was he speaking in terms of decades, centuries, or millennia? Was he speaking of a linear growth of technology or something like Kurzweil's exponential growth?
 
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