Spoilers The Flash - Season 6

[Kirk Prime]

Why is saving Hartley's career so much more important than having a healthy workplace?

These tweets were years ago, well before the workplace. They know the man. It's one thing to have to answer for them, but it's another to be fired. At what point do you draw the line? What if Hartley openly supported Biden and that offended half the workplace? Should he be fired? What if his workplace were a bunch of racists and Hartley spoke out against it? Should he be fired? Who decides what speech is right and wrong?

I agree that the tweets needed to be answered for by Sawyer. I agree they were wrong. But fire him over that? While James Gunn gets to return? While Kathy Griffin still gets work?

It's like in countries where they cut your hand off for stealing something. Punishment doesn't fit the crime.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Theoretically, if no one wants to work with Hartley, and 90 percent of the cast and crew quit because no one's fired Hartley, the show might as well be over, before they try to come back from that.

Meanwhile everyone in the cast can sue the producer(s) for a few million for creating a hostile workplace by keeping Hartley on the payroll, unless they fire Hartley.

 

[Jayson1]

Of course I think another message though it sends is that if your not willing to stand up for someone who doesn't deserve to be fired then it shows that if twitter comes for you someday they won't do it for you as well. It really shows just how how little they care about each other if they willing to throw each other under the bus over the first mistake. I bet ever member of the cast and well everyone has a few things that could get them fired if exposed because they are human beings. I think the main message is people need to stay off social media if your a celebrity. Not only do they not care about you they are actually wanting to ruin you. The funny thing is this is actually a extension of gatekeeping fans you always here about. Fans feel like they are entitled to be listened to. Well someone not firing someone your want fired is no different than a show ignoring your precious canon.


Jason

 

[Kirk Prime]

Theoretically, if no one wants to work with Hartley, and 90 percent of the cast and crew quit because no one's fired Hartley, the show might as well be over, before they try to come back from that.

Meanwhile everyone in the cast can sue the producer(s) for a few million for creating a hostile workplace by keeping Hartley on the payroll, unless they fire Hartley.

But wouldn't that be extremely unprofessional on the part of the actors? I don't think what he did is WORTH 90 percent of the cast and crew quitting, especially in light of the enormous paychecks the actors get. And I don't think there would be much of a case either. A boss has a right to hire at will whoever they want. That boss choosing to stand up for an employee that did nothing wrong on set or in the workplace or even since he was employed would not likely be grounds for creating a hostile workplace.

I think the main message is people need to stay off social media if your a celebrity.

Given how most celebrities act on social media, that's a terrific idea.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But wouldn't that be extremely unprofessional on the part of the actors? I don't think what he did is WORTH 90 percent of the cast and crew quitting, especially in light of the enormous paychecks the actors get. And I don't think there would be much of a case either. A boss has a right to hire at will whoever they want. That boss choosing to stand up for an employee that did nothing wrong on set or in the workplace or even since he was employed would not likely be grounds for creating a hostile workplace.



Given how most celebrities act on social media, that's a terrific idea.

I said "theoretically".

Collective bargaining, its how unions work.

 

[Snaploud]

I doubt 90% of the cast would quit, but they could certainly decide not to extend their contracts past season 7 (for the ones currently in negotiations for those seasons). Plus, you only really need the threat of one guy to quit if he is key to the show (Gustin).

 

[Jayson1]

Of course for Gustin to quit though he would need to have something lined up. Your bigger fear is you have a actor who has had some success in the movies and has a lot of demand for his or her service. I think Gustin will get work after the show but I wouldn't be shocked if The Flash will be the high point of his career as well.


Jason

 

[Snaploud]

Of course for Gustin to quit though he would need to have something lined up. Your bigger fear is you have a actor who has had some success in the movies and has a lot of demand for his or her service. I think Gustin will get work after the show but I wouldn't be shocked if The Flash will be the high point of his career as well.


Jason

I think Gustin has indicated that he wants to stick around for a couple more seasons, but it wouldn't be the first time a non-movie-star actor (Michael Rosenbaum) has left a superhero show (Smallville) after season 7 despite large financial incentives to stay. Also, Gustin has said he had to turn down several roles due to the Flash's shooting schedule, so there is definitely work out there for him (if not nearly as lucrative).

 

[Kirk Prime]

I said "theoretically".

Collective bargaining, its how unions work.

Unions bargain for salary and benefits, not to get one of their own fired.

If Gustin was so upset about tweets from years ago that he would demand he be fired, that makes him a complete monster and someone who I know I would never hire if I were a producer and Flash ended. I agree about the assessment of Gustin. He will have a strong career, but I'm not sure if there's a starring role again for him. I don't even think he would have cared if the firing wasn't so public, but it says a lot about the character of the cast that none of them said that this was too harsh. I doubt they are perfect people either.

 

[Jayson1]

I doubt Gustin or any of them were making demands. I am sure they all had their personal opinions on what should be done but really they themselves are also just employees. You basically got to tow the company line. Well maybe after asking their agent first what the best thing to do is.

Jason

 

[Snaploud]

Unions could step in if they believe the public statements constitute (or even just tangentially relate to) a hostile workplace.

As for Gustin, I doubt he would quit (or force the company to fire him), but he could easily apply pressure by saying he is unlikely to sign a new contract with Sawyer still on the show.

 

[Kirk Prime]

What he did was show that he is nothing like the character he plays when it comes to integrity and loyalty. Plus, getting the chance to get on a high horse and make obvious statements against racism that anyone with a clue would make is something most actors wouldn't pass up. He gets to be fake outraged and look good doing it. I don't condone Sawyer's comments, but the firing was terrible, and worse, his co-stars didn't have his back and bring that up.

Anyone can be a friend when times are good but when times are bad, that's when you find out who is important in your life.

 

[Professor Zoom]

When it comes to jokes then yes I think saying I am sorry is very much enough. You act like he did a great crime but it was edgelord jokes.

Call me when you're very being is the target of those jokes.

Stuff you can watch in any stand up act going back forever up to today.

Yep. I was around for Andrew Dice Clay. And guess what? People didn't like it then either. And some people did. Comics make the choice to do their act the way they want and live with the consequences.

These tweets were years ago, well before the workplace. They know the man.

1. You don't know what they know.
2. They also felt they knew him until this happened.

It's one thing to have to answer for them, but it's another to be fired.

Isn't that literally answering for it?

At what point do you draw the line? What if Hartley openly supported Biden and that offended half the workplace? Should he be fired? What if his workplace were a bunch of racists and Hartley spoke out against it? Should he be fired? Who decides what speech is right and wrong?

Who decides? I guess the business owner in this case.

I agree that the tweets needed to be answered for by Sawyer. I agree they were wrong. But fire him over that? While James Gunn gets to return? While Kathy Griffin still gets work?

It's almost like businesses have their own calculus for deciding who works for them.

It's like in countries where they cut your hand off for stealing something. Punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Call me when the state tells a citizen what they can say or not and we'll march together.

A boss has a right to hire at will whoever they want.

But not fire?

 

[Ovation]

Comics make the choice to do their act the way they want and live with the consequences.

Exactly. And context is critical. A stand-up comic, while not immune from negative consequences for "controversial" speech is protected to some degree by the context of the performance space and expectations of the audience. In Quebec (just to divert from exclusively American examples), there is a (now retired) stand up comic who was famous for adopting personas that would spout all sorts of things no one would say in polite society out loud, but in a manner that made it absolutely clear he was doing so to point out why such things are unacceptable. He had the gift of being able to do so without causing an uproar--because of the context of his performances. I could have repeated those ideas, back then, in the exact same words at a dinner party and, lacking both the context and skill of the performer, quite likely faced all sorts of social, possibly even legal, negative consequences. Moreover, I'm pretty sure, even with the benefit of the doubt given to Yvon Deschamps during his active years on stage, he would not be able to use all his material today without issue. Social mores evolve over time.

 

[Samurai8472]

I think Gustin has indicated that he wants to stick around for a couple more seasons, but it wouldn't be the first time a non-movie-star actor (Michael Rosenbaum) has left a superhero show (Smallville) after season 7 despite large financial incentives to stay. Also, Gustin has said he had to turn down several roles due to the Flash's shooting schedule, so there is definitely work out there for him (if not nearly as lucrative).

Whats gets me are the actors you hope make it big but just wind up stuck in Canada making small movies/shows.

Kristin Kreuk for example. She's not the best actress but I had hoped she'd make it big out of Canada

 

[Professor Zoom]

Exactly. And context is critical. A stand-up comic, while not immune from negative consequences for "controversial" speech is protected to some degree by the context of the performance space and expectations of the audience.

And a club can choose to book or not the comic--those are the consequences. When Richard Pryor started getting into more sensitive subjects and using rougher language, he lost access to a lot of clubs. He didn't give a fuck and found different places to perform and became a super star.

 

[Ovation]

And a club can choose to book or not the comic--those are the consequences. When Richard Pryor started getting into more sensitive subjects and using rougher language, he lost access to a lot of clubs. He didn't give a fuck and found different places to perform and became a super star.

Carlin had a similar story. Neither was naive enough to expect otherwise.

 

[Jayson1]

Yes it's true about Pryor and Carlin but in those cases were not suppose to be rooting for the clubs in those moments.


Jason

 

[JD]

I was kind of hoping we'd hear more honest comments from his castmates, and it does seem a bit odd that all we've gotten is one very PR sounding comment from Grant Gustin. It does kind of make me wonder if they're glad to see him go.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Gustin isn't the Queen.

In this situation, the most powerful piece on the board is an African American female.

Candice is the one with real power to save or ruin Hartley.