Spoilers The Flash - Season 6

[Snaploud]

I understand the law but I am talking about principle which is just as important as law if you have a free society.

It's been said repeatedly in this thread, but a free society does not mean freedom from personal or professional consequences to speech.

Also, there are other freedoms involved here. The Flash's producers/actors/studio have the freedom not to continue associating themselves with Hartley.

 

[Professor Zoom]

What is happening here is that people are not going to want to say anything out of fear it will haunt them.

Oh, NOES, people might be afraid to make racist and misogynistic jokes! The HORROR!!!!!!

*clutches pearls*

The ABSOLUTE HORROR!!!

Edited to add, re: Gone With the Wind.

OH, NOOOOOOOOES, you mean a movie that glorifies the Antebellum South, ignores the horrors of Slavery, made over 80 years ago when race relations weren't exactly peak woke will come back with a disclaimer putting the movie--an artifact of its time--in the proper context?

*gasps*

Someone pass me my smellin' salts, I do declare, I'm about to have some spells!

In the meantime, people are fighting for the right NOT to die at the hands of the police. If only people cared more about that than some movie made 80 years ago.

 

[Jayson1]

It's been said repeatedly in this thread, but a free society does not mean freedom from personal or professional consequences to speech.

Also, there are other freedoms involved here. The Flash's producers/actors/studio have the freedom not to continue associating themselves with Hartley.

So how many people were fired in the past for making dirty jokes? Or having the wrong political opinion? How can you look at modern society and see how we treat each other and the world that has been created as a good thing? We got to be better than just being okay with screwing people over because we don't like them or something they did. You got to save that stuff for real injustice. The Christian evangelist tried this stuff and nobody except them liked it. Playing moral police, literally sending report cards to studios about every offensive thing they would see in a episode and try and get the show cancelled.

Jason

 

[Snaploud]

So how many people were fired in the past for making dirty jokes? Or having the wrong political opinion? How can you look at modern society and see how we treat each other and the world that has been created as a good thing? We got to be better than just being okay with screwing people over because we don't like them or something they did. You got to save that stuff for real injustice. The Christian evangelist tried this stuff and nobody except them liked it. Playing moral police, literally sending report cards to studios about every offensive thing they would see in a episode and try and get the show cancelled.

Jason

So, what are you really arguing? Are you saying that employers should never have the right to fire an employee for their public statements? Or are you simply saying that you disagree with this particular firing because Hartley's words aren't extreme enough (in your opinion) to warrant his removal?

In this case, Hartley is a public entertainer who violated the morals clause of his contract (bringing harm to his show and triggering his firing). He also arguably created a hostile workplace through those public statements, which would make his employer liable if they were to keep him around.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

He made the tweets 6 fucking years ago, that is more than enough time for him to have moved on from that kind of behavior. I really think there needs to be some equivalent to a statute of limitations on this kind of thing. After a certain amount of time, you just need to able to forgive and forget.

You're in the age of the hypocritical Cancel Culture, so they are not forgiving...unless the offender's act is not so bothersome to them, as in the case of Gunn, who still works to this day. Says much about said hypocritical culture.

People are free to say whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences for what they say.

Consequences with exceptions, as the most progressive people ever to walk the earth (or so they believe)--those employed by the entertainment business--are outraged on levels, and only if it suits an agenda. Again, the firing and return to employment for Gunn says much and strongly suggests that he was tossed a ready life preserver as a matter of predetermined reaction, not because they felt he is a "different" person today, or has learned some lesson (otherwise, the same would apply to Sawyer, but it did not). He actively posted and engaged in making a joke out the evil of pedophilia, but in the end, the entertainment business wrapped their arms around him because they do not have a problem with what was going on in his ill mind, yet others (like Sawyer, the now former Elongated Man) are stamped with the skull and crossbones and banished. It is no wonder why the entertainment business is seen in such a negative light.

 

[Jayson1]

So, what are you really arguing? Are you saying that employers should never have the right to fire an employee for their public statements? Or are you simply saying that you disagree with this particular firing because Hartley's words aren't extreme enough (in your opinion) to warrant his removal?

The later. IMO firings should really be related to stuff that happens while at work unless it's beyond the pale in terms of bad. I'm not arguing people shouldn't be fired for bad performance or treating co-workers badly. Maybe if someone was a public spokesman or their fame was a huge impact on your bottom line. Grant Gustin going off would be one thing because he is the star but Sawyer is just a regular cast member. The show's ratings are not going to fall or rise because of him.

Jason

 

[Snaploud]

The later. IMO firings should really be related to stuff that happens while at work unless it's beyond the pale in terms of bad. I'm not arguing people shouldn't be fired for bad performance or treating co-workers badly. Maybe if someone was a public spokesman or their fame was a huge impact on your bottom line. Grant Gustin going off would be one thing because he is the star but Sawyer is just a regular cast member. The show's ratings are not going to fall or rise because of him.

Jason

I think you're underestimating the effects of keeping Sawyer around. Arrowverse fans tend to be pretty active online, and this scandal (if it didn't result in a firing) could easily take a bite out of the ratings. Also, they are in the midst of contract negotiations, and this is exactly the type of situation that could make those negotiations harder (if not impossible).

Honestly, I have no idea if the studio made the right decision to fire Saywer. I would need more information (such as the reactions from the rest of the cast, producers, etc.), but I can certainly understand the instinct to get rid of the guy.

 

[Jayson1]

I think you're underestimating the effects of keeping Sawyer around. Arrowverse fans tend to be pretty active online, and this scandal (if it didn't result in a firing) could easily take a bite out of the ratings. Also, they are in the midst of contract negotiations, and this is exactly the type of situation that could make those negotiations harder (if not impossible).

Honestly, I have no idea if the studio made the right decision to fire Saywer. I would need more information (such as the reactions from the rest of the cast, producers, etc.), but I can certainly understand the instinct to get rid of the guy.

That's true and while I think it's unfair he was fired I think my biggest ire is for the person who dug up the tweets. To me these people are real scum just looking for things that can be used to hurt people and get them fired either for attention or money or clicks. At least in the case even if Saywer hurt co-workers feelings it was intentional. People who dig this stuff do it on purpose knowing what impact it will have. No respect at all. I'm not libertarian but sometimes I check out their reason tv just to see what they are talking about and they have this music guy who is actually pretty good at spoof videos made something that I think reflects our culture.

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Jason

 

[Professor Zoom]

The later. IMO firings should really be related to stuff that happens while at work unless it's beyond the pale in terms of bad. I'm not arguing people shouldn't be fired for bad performance or treating co-workers badly. Maybe if someone was a public spokesman or their fame was a huge impact on your bottom line. Grant Gustin going off would be one thing because he is the star but Sawyer is just a regular cast member. The show's ratings are not going to fall or rise because of him.

Jason

Hartley is a public figure. He is a public figure on a TV show that does press events, red carpets, etc. He will get the question every event. If you were in charge of the show, would you want this to keep dragging out? If you were in charge of the show, would you want this to be the headline rather than what new super villain the Flash is facing? Public Relations is a big part of the business, Hartley made it harder to sell the show. He did the right thing by accepting the consequences and parting ways with the show. In two months, only the crazies will give a shit.

This isn't a free speech issue. The Blacklist--not the fucking TV show, the real one--THAT was a free speech issue because it was the government pushing it. Can't have commies writing movies! What will the kiddies believe!?

 

[Jayson1]

Hartley is a public figure. He is a public figure on a TV show that does press events, red carpets, etc. He will get the question every event. If you were in charge of the show, would you want this to keep dragging out? If you were in charge of the show, would you want this to be the headline rather than what new super villain the Flash is facing? Public Relations is a big part of the business, Hartley made it harder to sell the show. He did the right thing by accepting the consequences and parting ways with the show. In two months, only the crazies will give a shit.

This isn't a free speech issue. The Blacklist--not the fucking TV show, the real one--THAT was a free speech issue because it was the government pushing it. Can't have commies writing movies! What will the kiddies believe!?

I think if they said they were sticking with him people would stop talking about it in a couple of days. That's because I don't think many of them really care either way. You just move on to the next person. They have no real investment other than trying to humiliate or make someone suffer. People usually back away when someone stands up to them. Behind the scenes he might need to mend fences with people but that's just life. People working together and finding ways to get along.

Jason

 

[Professor Zoom]

I think if they said they were sticking with him people would stop talking about it in a couple of days. That's because I don't think many of them really care either way.

This is where you're wrong. Why not ask his black castmates? The female castmates? The black show runner? Maybe they care. And why should they "stick with him"?

You just move on to the next person. They have no real investment other than trying to humiliate or make someone suffer. People usually back away when someone stands up to them. Behind the scenes he might need to mend fences with people but that's just life. People working together and finding ways to get along.

Jason

"Suck it up, Black people! Women, you need to find a way to get along with Hartley!"

Why?

Why is saving Hartley's career so much more important than having a healthy workplace?

 

[Jayson1]

This is where you're wrong. Why not ask his black castmates? The female castmates? The black show runner? Maybe they care. And why should they "stick with him"?



"Suck it up, Black people! Women, you need to find a way to get along with Hartley!"

Why?

Why is saving Hartley's career so much more important than having a healthy workplace?

If it's going to be a issue on set then yes you got to make the move. That is why the person who digs this stuff out is who I have the biggest issue with. I would like to think the others would be professional enough to put the show ahead of feelings but sometimes people aren't, Especially since I am sure this isn't the first time they had to deal with work room drama since it happens in ever workplace or that they even have a choice in the matter instead of it all being decided by bosses at the top of CW. I bet in the end it really comes down to some suits at the top telling everyone how it's going to go and this is what you have to say to the press and all that stuff. We won't ever get any real knowledge of what people really felt until years later if someone writes a book or feels like they can be honest now that their job isn't on the line.


Jason

 

[Ovation]

put the show ahead of feelings but sometimes people aren't

You seem to think the hurt feelings are akin to elementary school students calling each other “boogerface” or something. Read the room, man.

 

[Jayson1]

You seem to think the hurt feelings are akin to elementary school students calling each other “boogerface” or something. Read the room, man.

No I know it can go deeper but feelings don't always lead to truth. It's just how you feel. You still need to make choices using critical thinking and facts and logic. If anything emotions cloud people's judgment. That's why when someone is upset you often hear someone say something like I need to clear my head. Another reason why it's also best to take some time instead of just going with the first emotional impulse and reacting. How can someone truly know if a choice is the right one in just a few hours? People should never make choices when they are angry . It's just not smart.

Jason

 

[Professor Zoom]

No I know it can go deeper but feelings don't always lead to truth. It's just how you feel. You still need to make choices using critical thinking and facts and logic. If anything emotions cloud people's judgment. That's why when someone is upset you often hear someone say something like I need to clear my head. Another reason why it's also best to take some time instead of just going with the first emotional impulse and reacting. How can someone truly know if a choice is the right one in just a few hours? People should never make choices when they are angry . It's just not smart.

Jason

Or maybe sometimes people are tired of having to hear “I was young, I’ve grown” as an excuse for terrible behavior.

And telling people who may feel they are the targets of the tweets to not be so emotional is a pretty hot take.

 

[Jayson1]

Or maybe sometimes people are tired of having to hear “I was young, I’ve grown” as an excuse for terrible behavior.

And telling people who may feel they are the targets of the tweets to not be so emotional is a pretty hot take.

If someone is young and have grown is true then it's not a excuse. It's just truth. Also people can feel anything they want. I am saying society just can't be guided by emotions. It would be very helpful though to know what his co-workers really feel. If they are really upset I wouldn't really mind or to be exact. I would disagree he should be fired but wouldn't find it so questionable he was fired. It would defiantly be better than it coming from some cold corporate calculation

. I know people have talked but I don't fully trust any truth to be forthcoming on how people really feel right now because like I said CW is really going to be controlling the narrative as far as they can. Can't be honest on twitter because you don't know who is watching if you have something to protect and your views are not approved by the mob. CW is looking out for it's own ass. Anyways to me I know he will be fine and they will al be fine. Bunch of rich people problems but to me this is just one of the many examples of what has gone wrong in this country. A whole career can be brought down by a asshole troll online and shows just how destructive social media has been to the whole world.

Jason

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Or maybe sometimes people are tired of having to hear “I was young, I’ve grown” as an excuse for terrible behavior.

Not allowing for growth and repentance of a person could be considered just as or even more terrible in many situations. I would hope we would never tire of people truly improving ftom where they once were.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Not allowing for growth and repentance of a person could be considered just as or even more terrible in many situations. I would hope we would never tire of people truly improving ftom where they once were.

Repentance means nothing without sacrifice. Just saying sorry isn't really repentance. And, again, I would ask those who were the target of the jokes their feelings on the matter before deciding what is "just as or even more terrible."

And I agree, I hope we never tire of people truly trying to improve themselves.

If someone is young and have grown is true then it's not a excuse. It's just truth.

The truth is, he was in his mid-twenties. At what age do white men have to be behavior they are old enough to know better? Or realize there will be a consequence? 30? 35?

Also people can feel anything they want. I am saying society just can't be guided by emotions.

Really? Because they sure seem to have been. Either by the Karens of the world who want things done their way. Or by people fighting for their rights. Stonewall was started because gay and trans people had had enough. Should they have just taken a moment?

It would be very helpful though to know what his co-workers really feel.

As if it was our business...

If they are really upset I wouldn't really mind or to be exact. I would disagree he should be fired but wouldn't find it so questionable he was fired. It would defiantly be better than it coming from some cold corporate calculation

So if the show runner himself had come out and said it, you'd be cool? Do you even know that it was "cold corporate calculation" or are you simply thinking it was?

. I know people have talked but I don't fully trust any truth to be forthcoming on how people really feel right now because like I said CW is really going to be controlling the narrative as far as they can. Can't be honest on twitter because you don't know who is watching if you have something to protect and your views are not approved by the mob.

Jesus. The mob? lol. I've been on Twitter for years. I have yet to be attacked for by the mob. Maybe I just practice good good-think.

CW is looking out for it's own ass.

Almost like they are a business that requires people to watch....

Anyways to me I know he will be fine and they will al be fine. Bunch of rich people problems but to me this is just one of the many examples of what has gone wrong in this country. A whole career can be brought down by a asshole troll online and shows just how destructive social media has been to the whole world.

Jason

YEAH, in the good old days in the 50s and 60s, it was the government that would bring down a career!

 

[Jayson1]

Repentance means nothing without sacrifice. Just saying sorry isn't really repentance. And, again, I would ask those who were the target of the jokes their feelings on the matter before deciding what is "just as or even more terrible."

And I agree, I hope we never tire of people truly trying to improve themselves.



The truth is, he was in his mid-twenties. At what age do white men have to be behavior they are old enough to know better? Or realize there will be a consequence? 30? 35?



Really? Because they sure seem to have been. Either by the Karens of the world who want things done their way. Or by people fighting for their rights. Stonewall was started because gay and trans people had had enough. Should they have just taken a moment?



As if it was our business...



So if the show runner himself had come out and said it, you'd be cool? Do you even know that it was "cold corporate calculation" or are you simply thinking it was?



Jesus. The mob? lol. I've been on Twitter for years. I have yet to be attacked for by the mob. Maybe I just practice good good-think.



Almost like they are a business that requires people to watch....



YEAH, in the good old days in the 50s and 60s, it was the government that would bring down a career!

When it comes to jokes then yes I think saying I am sorry is very much enough. You act like he did a great crime but it was edgelord jokes. Stuff you can watch in any stand up act going back forever up to today. Also why do you mention him being a white male? All humans make mistakes and have things they grow from. Also in this case edgelord jokes isn't even something specific to white people. It's a comedy styling that doesn't even count as opinion.

And yes I do think it's all a corporate response. If I am wrong then I am wrong and will admit it but if it felt genuine the statements wouldn't sound so artificial like they were crafted by a publist or lawyer. It's pretty good clue something isn't real when they use all the same buzzwords and coach speak as I call it. When you want to say something without saying anything.


Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a domino effect Jason.

Even if Hartley is 70 percent innocent, the last 4000 white guys were a little less innocent than he was, and most of them deserved a good smiting.

Sooner or later, all the white guys with something to hide are going to die off, and the playing field will level.