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Spoilers The Flash - Season 6

The whole thing that irks me is.. Immediate firing.. No chance to tell his side, no chance to apologize, say it was 8 years ago, was doing this or that, was in appropriate, I haven't said or done these things since X Time, Etc Etc. Its just.. Bam.. gone..
People need to realize.. Twitter IS NOT the people writ large.. only what.. 20% of us have an account, and even smaller percentage is actually active? and most of those are Toxic people with no other life than to criticize or cancel because they have nothing better to do??
 
I'm sorry, but saying a TV show is allowed to do it, but an individual is not, that's a very weird position to take.

Again, nobody said he wasn't allowed to make those comments -- just that permission does not equal freedom from consequences. A show that crosses a line and alienates its audience can be cancelled. Actions have consequences, for both.


Now, as a disclaimer, I haven't actually read any of the tweets in question. But, using your scenario, how would he have been able to tell that people would find it offensive enough to get him fired eight years later?

Again, you've got the defaults backward. It's better to default to politeness and save rudeness for those you already know can accept it.


Okay, but doesn't society need to have a discussion before coming to consensus? Talking about this case, I didn't hear about these tweets until the news that Sawyer was fired for them, and I still haven't read them. Now, amittedly, I'm a white male in Germany, I probably was not the butt of any of those jokes, but the fact that I hadn't even heard about this going on until a decision was made is deeply troubling.

Why? It's not about you. It's not about how a white male would feel about jokes that vilified racial minorities, women, and LGBT people. So why the hell do you think they needed to consult you, or me, or any hetero white man about that decision? This is not about us. We're not the ones hurt by it, so it's obnoxious to think we're the only ones who should have a say.


But there are jokes you don't even realize are racist, or sexist. With some jokes, it's not that obvious. And with some, you don't know whether you cross a line or not.

Which, again, is why you listen to what other people tell you. You don't get defensive when they tell you that you offended them. You don't get mad at them and insist they're persecuting you. You listen and learn and face the consequences. You think about other people, not just yourself.
 
Now, as a disclaimer, I haven't actually read any of the tweets in question. But, using your scenario, how would he have been able to tell that people would find it offensive enough to get him fired eight years later?

If he did not know that these tweets would be offensive, then he has very poor judgment. Here is one example:

" In one tweet, Sawyer said that a great ice breaker at parties was to say that "All women should be in sex farms." Sawyer also made a number of jokes about wife-beating, staring at women's breasts and, in one particularly vile tweet, said, "I like women who are good in the sack! The burlap sack where I put my victims." Several of Sawyer's other tweets made reference to him being a secret serial killer who loved torturing women.

Beyond making light of sexual assault, domestic abuse, and serial killers, Sawyer also made a number of remarks that were racist and dismissive of race issues in America."

Hartley-Sawyer-Stupid-Tweets.jpg


https://screenrant.com/flash-hartley-sawyer-tweets-racist-explained/

But there are jokes you don't even realize are racist, or sexist. With some jokes, it's not that obvious. And with some, you don't know whether you cross a line or not.

Here's a joke:

Man asked God: "Oh Lord, why did you make Woman so beautiful?"
And God answered: "So that you would love her."
But Man asked further of God: "Lord, why did you make Woman so dumb?"
And God answered: "So that she would love you."

Now, is that joke offensive? It's certainly sexist. But it's both calling women dumb, and saying men can only be loved by somebody stupid. So, should I not tell this joke to a woman, on the chance that she might be offended? And if she were offended, would that make her right?

Again, use your judgment. Are you telling the joke to a close friend who you know very well and know if they would appreciate the joke or are you telling the joke to a stranger or tweeting it to strangers? If you are telling the joke to your close friend who likes that kind of joke, it's probably ok. Telling the joke to strangers, might not be a good idea.
 
No one has the right to not be offended. No one. Conversely, no one has the right to give offence and be exempt from the consequences of doing so.

It’s not really more complicated than this.

There are, of course, mitigating factors. Intent matters, to a point. And context is critical. For example, a comedian may wish to use racist imagery and/or language to make an argument against racism and has the right to do so. If done skillfully, it may succeed and, as a further consequence, may shield the comedian from the backlash the identically expressed ideas would generate in a different context. But there is never any guarantee the comedian will succeed. Effective comedy is difficult to master, especially if it involves using imagery and language in a subversive manner.
 
Not going to get into the whole debate here. Just going to say, those are some nasty tweets. And I'll miss Elongated Man. I liked the character.
 
They could still recast. As someone said above, they might have to, since the Sue Dibny story was left on a cliffhanger.

True. And with a good actor it could work. Someone who can bring the same spirit to as Sawyer did.
 
Again, you've got the defaults backward. It's better to default to politeness and save rudeness for those you already know can accept it.


.

I agree when it comes to personal interactions but not when it comes to the law and how we enforce them. Freedom of speech is more important than feelings. They way you shame people is to not take their rights away but to simple tell them you think they are wrong and to challenge them via more speech. If people are going to change it has to come from the heart and not because someone is threatening them that they will take their job away or in some cases give people's home address away which is becoming more of a problem all the time if they don't do agree with them.

Jason
 
If he did not know that these tweets would be offensive, then he has very poor judgment. Here is one example:

" In one tweet, Sawyer said that a great ice breaker at parties was to say that "All women should be in sex farms." Sawyer also made a number of jokes about wife-beating, staring at women's breasts and, in one particularly vile tweet, said, "I like women who are good in the sack! The burlap sack where I put my victims." Several of Sawyer's other tweets made reference to him being a secret serial killer who loved torturing women.

Beyond making light of sexual assault, domestic abuse, and serial killers, Sawyer also made a number of remarks that were racist and dismissive of race issues in America."

Hartley-Sawyer-Stupid-Tweets.jpg


https://screenrant.com/flash-hartley-sawyer-tweets-racist-explained/



Again, use your judgment. Are you telling the joke to a close friend who you know very well and know if they would appreciate the joke or are you telling the joke to a stranger or tweeting it to strangers? If you are telling the joke to your close friend who likes that kind of joke, it's probably ok. Telling the joke to strangers, might not be a good idea.

In those tweets he is playing the role of the fake bad guy. With a little altering you could just as easy hear Peter Griffin or Roger Smith saying them. Danny McBride and Bill Burr are famous for doing this kind of comedy. People find people saying bad and offensive things funny all the time because it's shocking but I think also because deep down they like how liberating it feels to be a little bad without actually being a bad person. It's the same reason people like bloody action movies and horror with gore and shows about terrible people doing bad things like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

Jason
 
A month ago, I joked to my boss about how I thought he was a sack of shit and liked to fantasize about his physical mutilation, and he had the nerve to fire me for it! What happened to freedom of speech in this country, man?
 
True. And with a good actor it could work. Someone who can bring the same spirit to as Sawyer did.
Also I believe they where saving the last completed episode for next season. They did not think it was a good season ending cliffhanger. So held it back.

Which raises the question will they still air a episode he finished after he was fired?

It might be a perfect way to recast. Just end with new scene of his face injured severely and bandaged. He discovers he can never fully morph back to old face. We move on from there with new actor.
 
A month ago, I joked to my boss about how I thought he was a sack of shit and liked to fantasize about his physical mutilation, and he had the nerve to fire me for it! What happened to freedom of speech in this country, man?

so you are comparing something just said at the work place with something that was said 8 years ago that was not at the workplace? That’s a hard comparison to make.

I Think the onus is on the CW and producers that didn’t do a background check when they hired the guy. Now that guy might have changed and everyone is throwing him under the bus. I don’t condone the things he said, but if he was awesome to work with on the set, he should have been allowed to clear his name and apologize.
 
No one has the right to not be offended. No one. Conversely, no one has the right to give offence and be exempt from the consequences of doing so.

It’s not really more complicated than this.

There are, of course, mitigating factors. Intent matters, to a point. And context is critical.

Sociopolitical agenda also matters; Sawyer was fired and you see some having a no-tolerance policy behavior about it, yet it was not long ago that some were so outraged about the firing of Gunn for his history of pedophile "jokes" and costuming related to that reprehensible behavior/action--going so far as to attempt to downplay his history and attack the source who brought to public attention because of their political beliefs. Not a moral bone to be found in that case, when some were more concerned with attacking a political opposite...and Gunn remaining a part of the MCU (yes, a WTF moment if one ever existed) than his finding any humor in the savage abuse of children.

So, if some are going to stand on their soapbox, it would help if there was more consistency in the reactions--which should not be based on where and/or who the offender works for / how much the offended cares about their work--which is meaningless...obviously.
 
Yes -- like I said, it's called taking responsibility. That's a good thing.
The problem with this kind of a situation, is that you kind of have no choice but to say stuff like that if you don't want to make the pile of shit you are in bigger. So it's hard to know if they really mean it.



If they actually have done so. The fact that his colleagues and friends -- including a black showrunner and costars -- had to learn about it this way, that he kept it hidden from them all these years, makes it questionable to claim that he's learned anything other than how to conceal it. Nobody is automatically entitled to be forgiven for bigoted words or actions. They have to prove they've earned it.
But was it hidden, or did he just not talk about it. I can't really see a lot of people going through every questionable thing they've done in their entire life with everyone they meet. Do we know for a fact that he actually purposefully kept the tweets a secret, or did he just not announce that he made them because it has been 6 years, turns out one of the tweets was from 2014, and he's moved on from that kind of behavior. There's a big difference between keeping something a secret, and just not talking about it.
As I keep saying, there is abundant precedent for people stepping down from their jobs when past indiscretions are revealed. Politicians have resigned because of affairs committed years before, or the like. It's a matter of trust. Yes, the actions may have been years ago, but if they undermine the people's trust in them, that can undermine their ability to do the job, and if they care more about the good of the institution than about their own ego or entitlement, they will step down in favor of someone less tainted. I don't understand why you're so shocked as if this has never happened before. It's a pretty common consequence when indiscretions that someone has kept secret are finally exposed. The very fact that they hid the indiscretions from their colleagues and employers calls their trustworthiness into question.
That kind of thing is fine when it's stuff that has just happened, but I think after a certain amount of time, people need to be able to recognize that how someone acted or felt in the past is not necessarily how they act and feel today.



Like I keep saying -- resignation is often how you apologize, how you make penance. It's the first step in that process. It's ludicrous to say anyone has "moved on" when it's only just come out. We're nowhere near the "moved on" point yet.
He made the tweets 6 fucking years ago, that is more than enough time for him to have moved on from that kind of behavior. I really think there needs to be some equivalent to a statute of limitations on this kind of thing. After a certain amount of time, you just need to able to forgive and forget.
And frankly I find it very offensive that you seem to care more about defending a white man's privilege to be excused for racism and homophobia than you care about the feelings of his numerous black and gay colleagues who feel justifiably betrayed, hurt, and angry by his actions and can't just casually dismiss them. Try considering their point of view.[/QUOTE]
Oh, shit, is that not at all my intent, and I I came across that way I apologize.
My issue is purely with the amount of time between the action and the punishment.
The tweets he made were horrible, and if he had just made them yesterday or last week, I would be perfectly OK with him being fired. I just think there needs to be a point where you can be forgiven for a relatively minor offense.

I don't feel like quoting specific posts, but I do want to go back to the freedom speech thing for a moment. Punishing people for saying offensive things, is not taking away their freedom of speech, it is simply showing them that what they said is not OK. People are free to say whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences for what they say.
 
Punishing people for saying offensive things, is not taking away their freedom of speech, it is simply showing them that what they said is not OK. People are free to say whatever the hell they want, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences for what they say.
This
 
Nah. Cuz too much like soap operas.
The Flash is basically just a soap opera with superheroes. Most of the drama comes from the relationship between the characters, especially between Barry, Iris and the West family.


Also posting racist shit on the internet is bad idea if you intend of having a job in the future. The thing about the internet is that once you put something on it, it never goes away. So only post things that probably won't backfire on you later. If you have problems with that, then you probably know that something you posted could hurt you later and you likely deserve it.
 
The business reality is that it does not matter if the tweets were meant as a joke or were done to shock or if Sawyer is a great guy or if he apologizes. If the company deems the tweets to be harmful for their business model, then he's gone. End of story. I am not saying it is right but it's how business work.
 

But what if someone said gay marriage was offensive and you had someone like Trump in charge of the company and fired people who defended it? Whether or not something is offensive can change with who is in power but if you have free speech it means you can always fight against injustice. Supporting free speech is often about supporting free speech as a concept and principle and the details are not as important as what kind of free speech someone is saying. It's defending the principle and human right above all else. Especially for those times when you will need it for things you believe in that might be under attack.

Jason
 
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