Spoilers The Flash - Season 5

[Guy Gardener]

Nora was using a power dampener on herself in the beginning, to trick her parents into allowing her to stay. Tht device may have other settings like power dampening dampening.

From "securities" failed perspective, Nora has broken into and out of Iron Heights 50 to a hundred times, inside the limits of less than an hour. Thawn is going to die soon. That may not be his his holding cell, but his execution chamber, which is why Eobard is given the privacy to die with a little dignity.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think Barry made a good decision from his information. As far as she knows, she's just another evil crazy person from the future.

Though he should get a vasectomy to be sure...unless that would cause the end of the world.

Once again, they drop the ball on the consent issue. Grace is a killer. Her powers are a weapon that she uses to kill. There is no logical reason not to force the cure on her. As for child Grace, that's also ridiculous. Children have guardians. They aren't able to give consent legally--that's the call of the guardian. Her uncle could have easily consented for her. The only thing they got right there was that they said Grace was too weak to take the cure.

Well, there's a very good reason not to give her the cure because that would create another goddamn time paradox. As we see, also, that doesn't actually get rid of time travelling baddies either.

 

[Awesome Possum]

They clearly said that she was too weak to take it and survive.

 

[Finn]

Hey, why doesn't Barry goes a few years into the future, and give Grace the cure...?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Hey, why doesn't Barry goes a few years into the future, and give Grace the cure...?

*Barry enters a blasted horrific hellscape with all of his friends murdered by a time-traveling Cicada II--none of them alive because the Flash wasn't there to protect them*

"I hate Time Travel."

 

[Kirk Prime]

Though he should get a vasectomy to be sure...unless that would cause the end of the world.

And thus we have the eternal question from season one--why did Eddie kill himself when all he had to do was have a vasectomy?

Plus, because of the whole time remnant thing, Eddie's sacrifice meant absolutely nothing. In theory, it should have created a paradox. If he kills himself, Thawne isn't born, negating the reason to kill himself. Plus, Thawne couldn't kill Barry's mom, and Barry becomes Flash a little later in life.

Sometimes the writers don't handle time travel that well. I'm a believer that if you are writing a time travel story, you should open it up before publishing to nitpickers, including yourself. When someone catches something, change the story to deal with the problem. Once all problems are solved, you will have a tight story.

Regarding THIS episode, we have a situation where somehow, Nora was born, but Dawn was not. Why? The casual audience member wouldn't know who Dawn is, but she WAS mentioned by Thawne, who does. As he is immune from timeline changes, he knows how things originally play out.

I still think it would be absolutely amazing, and very gutsy, if the season ends with Nora causing herself to never be born, and Barry's twins to be born instead.

Well, there's a very good reason not to give her the cure because that would create another goddamn time paradox. As we see, also, that doesn't actually get rid of time travelling baddies either.

How many time travelling baddies as you say survived a timeline change that should have erased them? Obviously Thawne did, but he's also a speedster and the magical time remnant thing gives him a pass. Grace isn't a speedster, so I doubt she would survive it.

If Grace in the present was strong enough to take the cure, it might also get her out of her coma. The only issue that would be that Cicada I would be alive again, but that isn't the worst thing. He's depowered and going to jail.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And thus we have the eternal question from season one--why did Eddie kill himself when all he had to do was have a vasectomy?

Eddie seemed to have been really mind-f***ed by Thawne saying that Iris wouldn't marry him and no one would remember him as a cop (and that's fair--with the Flash Eddie is almost superfluous as a homicide detective). But his solution was REALLY stupid because of the consequences.

Plus, because of the whole time remnant thing, Eddie's sacrifice meant absolutely nothing. In theory, it should have created a paradox. If he kills himself, Thawne isn't born, negating the reason to kill himself. Plus, Thawne couldn't kill Barry's mom, and Barry becomes Flash a little later in life.

Having re-watched the Flash, it's important to remember it DID cause a time paradox and the Singularity required the sacrifice of Ronnie Raymond to close it as well as the Flash running at super-speed. Without Firestorm, it would have destroyed the world. It's implied to have killed a non-negligible number of civilians as well since it absorbed at least one skyscraper and many cars as well as inspired a year of Barry trauma plus "Flash Day" as a memorial.

Regarding THIS episode, we have a situation where somehow, Nora was born, but Dawn was not. Why? The casual audience member wouldn't know who Dawn is, but she WAS mentioned by Thawne, who does. As he is immune from timeline changes, he knows how things originally play out.

I believe Nora an Dawn are the same character but the former was named differently because her grandmother died tragically.

How many time travelling baddies as you say survived a timeline change that should have erased them? Obviously Thawne did, but he's also a speedster and the magical time remnant thing gives him a pass. Grace isn't a speedster, so I doubt she would survive it.

My solution is that with parallel worlds and reality being "busted" that we shouldn't think too hard about it. It's very clear that Eobard actually doesn't understand it much better than Barry and arguably neither does Rip Hunter.

 

[Finn]

I believe Nora an Dawn are the same character but the former was named differently because her grandmother died tragically.

That might be a good theory. However, the problem I see with that is that the timeline has been altered many times that I'd amazed that Barry and Iris managed to conceive the same baby. That would have to mean that after of that timeline changes, that one particular day was similar enough for the two to decide to copulate at the same moment...

But again, Nora is incredibly lucky that her interactions with her parents, etc didn't erase her from extinction...unless Thawne has something to do with it.

 

[Photoman15]

That might be a good theory. However, the problem I see with that is that the timeline has been altered many times that I'd amazed that Barry and Iris managed to conceive the same baby. That would have to mean that after of that timeline changes, that one particular day was similar enough for the two to decide to copulate at the same moment...

But again, Nora is incredibly lucky that her interactions with her parents, etc didn't erase her from extinction...unless Thawne has something to do with it.

More than same moment. Same angle, same place, same EVERYTHING

 

[Kirk Prime]

Eddie seemed to have been really mind-f***ed by Thawne saying that Iris wouldn't marry him and no one would remember him as a cop (and that's fair--with the Flash Eddie is almost superfluous as a homicide detective). But his solution was REALLY stupid because of the consequences.

I get all that, but it made no sense for him to kill himself. It's almost comical. I said it at the time and I say it now, and the worst part is, he died for nothing.

Having re-watched the Flash, it's important to remember it DID cause a time paradox and the Singularity required the sacrifice of Ronnie Raymond to close it as well as the Flash running at super-speed. Without Firestorm, it would have destroyed the world. It's implied to have killed a non-negligible number of civilians as well since it absorbed at least one skyscraper and many cars as well as inspired a year of Barry trauma plus "Flash Day" as a memorial.

Here's the thing--none of that should have happened. Why didn't the killing of Barry's mom inspire similar consequences? People forget--the entire series is a timeline altered by Thawne. In the original timeline, Flash grew up with parents and just got his powers a little later. That's also why Flashpoint should have worked.

Why would restoring the timeline have consequences, but changing it in the first place is fine?

I believe Nora an Dawn are the same character but the former was named differently because her grandmother died tragically.

Well, in the comics, Dawn had a twin. Nora does not. But it's an interesting theory. The only one who would know is Thawne.

My solution is that with parallel worlds and reality being "busted" that we shouldn't think too hard about it. It's very clear that Eobard actually doesn't understand it much better than Barry and arguably neither does Rip Hunter.

Of course, it could be argued that this is a writing weakness. There are strong time travel writers out there that can fix anything. If all stories can come from writers, and if there is a time travel issue in the story, a good writer will close the loophole in the next draft.

But again, Nora is incredibly lucky that her interactions with her parents, etc didn't erase her from extinction...unless Thawne has something to do with it.

Unless she is a time remnant herself now. That would be a cool twist.

 

[Ovation]

No time travel story in popular entertainment withstands scrutiny. Some are more coherent than others but they all break down somewhere. I long ago concluded that it’s best to just go with the flow and judge such stories on the criterion of “was I entertained?” Much better for one’s blood pressure.

 

[Kirk Prime]

No time travel story in popular entertainment withstands scrutiny. Some are more coherent than others but they all break down somewhere. I long ago concluded that it’s best to just go with the flow and judge such stories on the criterion of “was I entertained?” Much better for one’s blood pressure.

Half the fun is picking it apart. But as a writer, the challenge should be to think like a nitpicker and go for it. And if you can't fix it, stick something in the story that explains why this paradox works. That's the beauty of writing--you can fix things by making it up.

 

[Christopher]

However, the problem I see with that is that the timeline has been altered many times that I'd amazed that Barry and Iris managed to conceive the same baby.

Except we've seen that many people in the Arrowmultiverse do have identical doppelgangers in parallel timelines/universes despite the different history -- and it's a common trope in countless other works of fiction involving alternate realities. No, it doesn't make scientific sense, but few things in the Arrowverse do make scientific sense. If Oliver and Felicity can exist on Earth-X, if Spock and O'Brien can exist in the Mirror Universe, then Nora can be the same person as Dawn in another timeline.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Except we've seen that many people in the Arrowmultiverse do have identical doppelgangers in parallel timelines/universes despite the different history -- and it's a common trope in countless other works of fiction involving alternate realities. No, it doesn't make scientific sense, but few things in the Arrowverse do make scientific sense. If Oliver and Felicity can exist on Earth-X, if Spock and O'Brien can exist in the Mirror Universe, then Nora can be the same person as Dawn in another timeline.

I agree since it would kind of defeat the purpose of parallel world stories if that wasn't the case. There is no question that Nora and Dawn can be the same person--but that has not been established on screen. I feel that when it comes to assumptions, the logical approach is best, and when two people have two different names, you have to assume that they are different people. It's a rebuttable presumption--one that can be changed simply by writing. It wouldn't be a contradiction if Nora and Dawn turned out to be the same person with different names. But in the absence of that very fact being covered, it doesn't make sense to make that the default.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Once again, they drop the ball on the consent issue. Grace is a killer. Her powers are a weapon that she uses to kill.

The instant a meta proves a danger to themselves or those around them then the cure should be considered, however, there must be a "due process" (which would include the ability to appeal). I also believe that morally Team Flash need to turn oversight over to a civilian authority. It is actually immoral of them to keep this all to themselves.

This cure is proving to be a bad plot device because the main characters are completely wrong on how the cure should be implemented.

I agree. I think they should have had it be much more of a debate and a divisive issue amongst their ranks. As it is it's becoming more Cult Flash than Team Flash.

I'm so much more interested in Nora's story.

Not surprising as it is by far the most relatable story in that the humanity of her motivation and conflict is real.

My thinking is that Barry and Iris will hear her out. That was a quick reaction by Barry on what he perceived as a legit threat.

I think it was an emotionally impulsive one. One of those moments in life where one is stunned by events and react almost totally on impulse or instinct. I believe Barry, at that moment, just saw red (no pun intended) and the profound sense of betrayal had him react in the moment as he didn't even want to hear what she had to say because he needed to process what he had learned. To me, that's good writing.

Nora's failure to tell Barry her situation is a hell of a character flaw. She may have her father's powers, but she doesn't have his bravery.

Drama is about our imperfections, and Nora's failure not so hellacious of a character flaw. Again, it is understandable. Nora is still young and immature who partnered with Thawne not knowing his full history with her father. I know I kept a secret or two from my parents growing up.

Nora's been lying by omission from the start, then she learns her partner murdered her father's mother (her grandmother), and she knows of her dad's hatred of Thawne … makes coming clean magnitudes harder. Should Nora have confessed? Yes, however, it is understandable she didn't. This is a learning moment for her. A hard knock frm the school of life. Barry and Iris will of course cool down, reach out to hear and give her a listen.

 

[Charles Phipps]

More than same moment. Same angle, same place, same EVERYTHING

The show's scientific accuracy is now completely compromised!

 

[Kirk Prime]

The instant a meta proves a danger to themselves or those around them then the cure should be considered, however, there must be a "due process" (which would include the ability to appeal). I also believe that morally Team Flash need to turn oversight over to a civilian authority. It is actually immoral of them to keep this all to themselves.

I think both of these are fair. The cure should be used without incident in a dangerous situation. Both Cicadas absolutely qualify. Powers are kind of like a gun. Some people can have it, some cannot. If you are waiving a gun and shooting people, you can be disarmed without permission or due process. But if you aren't, that's another animal. If you are law abiding, or even a hero, no one should touch you without consent.

The civilian authority idea is tricky, because it could lead to forced cures.

I think it was an emotionally impulsive one. One of those moments in life where one is stunned by events and react almost totally on impulse or instinct. I believe Barry, at that moment, just saw red (no pun intended) and the profound sense of betrayal had him react in the moment as he didn't even want to hear what she had to say because he needed to process what he had learned. To me, that's good writing.

Definitely--and again, we only saw Barry find out and react for about 10 seconds. The next episode could be phenomenal if they play it right.

 

[dahj]

If I understood Thawne's video correctly, his big breakthrough was figuring out a way how to change the timeline without changing his memories of the timeline, but isn't that just the way time travel always worked? For instance Barry still remembers the pre-Flashpoint timeline, and Nora remembers her timeline even though she also changed it...

 

[Romulan_spy]

If I understood Thawne's video correctly, his big breakthrough was figuring out a way how to change the timeline without changing his memories of the timeline, but isn't that just the way time travel always worked? For instance Barry still remembers the pre-Flashpoint timeline, and Nora remembers her timeline even though she also changed it...

Maybe there is a delay and eventually the new timeline sets in and changes your memories? So Thawne found a way to avoid that?

 

[Christopher]

If I understood Thawne's video correctly, his big breakthrough was figuring out a way how to change the timeline without changing his memories of the timeline, but isn't that just the way time travel always worked? For instance Barry still remembers the pre-Flashpoint timeline, and Nora remembers her timeline even though she also changed it...

Generally the person who changes the timeline remembers the old timeline (because they came from that timeline and traveled into the new one, while people who are "native" to the altered timeline aren't aware of the unaltered one (to put it another way, since they're "inside" the timeline when it changes, their memories change with it). So maybe Thawne was concerned about someone else (e.g. the Flash or the Time Masters) changing history in a way that would change his own memories. He wanted a way to ensure he'd be able to retain a record of the lost timeline so that he wouldn't be caught off guard by other time travelers.