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Spoilers The Flash - Season 2

When you write something like that, I have no idea how you can suspend your disbelief enough to enjoy superhero fiction at all. It's a genre that's chock full of ludicrously impossible things.

Because it's called suspension of disbelief. Suspension in the sense of putting something temporarily on hold. While reading or watching a story, we choose to suspend our knowledge that it's unreal; but once the story's over, we resume disbelief in its reality, because if we didn't, we'd be delusional. (Like those people back in 1964 who sent the Coast Guard telegrams demanding to know why they didn't send a ship to rescue the seven stranded castaways of the S.S. Minnow.) I am not watching a work of fiction when I post in this thread; I am back in reality and talking about the larger scientific ideas that are raised by a real-world discussion about a work of fiction.

And I'm not just talking about whether the show makes sense. The show is just the starting point for a conversation about bigger ideas. That's the cool thing about speculative fiction -- the fact that it touches on so many ideas that are bigger than any one story, on larger themes of the nature of existence and the workings of the universe that are explored in different ways by many different SF works, as well as being addressed by real science. So a conversation that begins with a single episode of a single show can blossom into a dialogue about the universe as a whole, about the larger nature of reality itself.

More to the point, you're mistaking my reaction to a specific thing for a more general reaction. I wasn't saying I don't believe in any explanation for what's in the show, I'm expressing my problems with the specific idea that anything that happens in a story about alternate realities can be justified by invoking the "Anything can happen in an infinite multiverse rule." I find that particular model to be logically flawed for reasons that I've explained. There is no reason why that critique should be presumed to apply to other models, because my whole point is that I would prefer another model.
 
Guilty as charged :D I feel a bit too old for that.
I thought we were talking about the real Superman universe. The one I know Kal-El and Jor-El from. And Zod even.
Actually Supergirl does take place in a "Superman universe". Jimmy Olsen is a supporting character, and they talk about Superman, Lois Lane, and Perry White all the time. The show often feels like it could be a spinoff of a Superman show we never saw.
EDIT: I watched the latest episode the other day and really enjoyed it.
The time travel stuff was fun, I especially got a kick out of seeing Eddie and Wells/Thawne again.
I was surprised that the characters in the past actually found out about, and worked with future Barry.
I liked Barry recording the video of Eddie for Iris.
I like the fact that their time travel stories are actually having consequences, instead of each one just hitting a reset button at the end.
 
I was surprised that the characters in the past actually found out about, and worked with future Barry.
Yeah, shouldn't they remember this? Shouldn't Barry remember seeing the other Barry from the future?
I never can wrap my head around time travel stories but they are great fun!
 
Yeah, shouldn't they remember this? Shouldn't Barry remember seeing the other Barry from the future?

In fact, they clearly did remember. That was how they defeated the Time Wraith -- because they'd had a year to devise a weapon against it and prepare for its return on the day Barry got back to the future. (Hey, that'd make a good title for something...)
 
In fact, they clearly did remember. That was how they defeated the Time Wraith -- because they'd had a year to devise a weapon against it and prepare for its return on the day Barry got back to the future. (Hey, that'd make a good title for something...)
Right. I had forgotten about that. But this is a new/split off timeline now? I meant, they should have known whether or not this mission was successful before he even started it. A self-fulfilling prophecy. Like when you find something important that helps you and then you have to go and hide it in the place so your future you can find it.
 
Right. I had forgotten about that. But this is a new/split off timeline now? I meant, they should have known whether or not this mission was successful before he even started it. A self-fulfilling prophecy. Like when you find something important that helps you and then you have to go and hide it in the place so your future you can find it.

This show uses the standard fictional model where time travel-induced changes "overwrite" the original history. What you're referring to are the other leading models, the fixed-timeline/self-consistent model (where history can't be changed) and the parallel-timelines model (where changing history creates a parallel branch that coexists with the original history). Ironically, those are the only two models that make any physical or logical sense -- because the idea of events that happened being made to have never happened is a logical contradiction, so the original history must always survive one way or the other -- and yet it's the nonsensical "overwriting" model that's overwhelmingly preferred in fiction, because the dramatic stakes are higher if the original history is in danger of erasure. And just because it's what most people are conditioned to expect because of all the earlier stories that have used it.

Interestingly, judging from this week's Agents of SHIELD, the Marvel Cinematic Universe (or at least its TV branch) seems to be going with the fixed-timeline model instead, which is not unprecedented in fiction (see the movie 12 Monkeys, The Time Traveler's Wife, "...All You Zombies...", Gargoyles, etc.) but much rarer than the Back to the Future-style overwriting model. I guess it's nice to have that contrast between the DC and Marvel approaches.
 
Well...

Time Line 1. Barry 1 exists. Goes back in time to time line 2.

Time Line 2. Barry 1 makes changes. Creates Barry 2 in the past. Barry 1 goes back to the present of timeline 2. Barry 2 in the past now considers causality. At some point in the future does he may have to go back in time to do everything Barry 1 did? No. Barry 1 is a different person who is not him, and if he was so foolish, Barry 2 will create Time line 3 and Barry 3. Which means irregradless of what Barry 2 does, Barry 1 is going to reenter Timeline 2 in one years time if Barry 2 doesn't go back in time, or Barry 1 is going to reenter Timeline 3 if Barry 2 does go back in time to timeline 3, after which Barry 3 will have to consider causality and three Barries will arrive back in the present creating time line 4, and so on until there are more Barries than atoms in the universe.

Still in Timeline 2. Barry 2 does not have to go back in time, and he shouldn't unless he's an idiot. Barry 1 arrives back from the past into timeline 2. There are now 2 Barries in timeline 2 to fight Zoom in the big fight at the end. Barry 2 waits out in a cheap dive, as the perfect secret weapon to use on Zoom when Zoom least expects it.

:)

Didn't you ever wonder what happened to the Cool Marty McFly who had successful parents and owned the big Truck? We saw him go back to 1955, but loser Marty, was more than happy to just accept that he had a new better life without wondering when exactly the cooler, maybe smarter and luckier Marty McFly was going to comeback back to the future and shit on loser Marty's cornflakes.
 
Didn't you ever wonder what happened to the Cool Marty McFly who had successful parents and owned the big Truck? We saw him go back to 1955, but loser Marty, was more than happy to just accept that he had a new better life without wondering when exactly the cooler, maybe smarter and luckier Marty McFly was going to comeback back to the future and shit on loser Marty's cornflakes.

It would be funny if they swapped places. Cool Marty ends up in 1985 loser McFly hell with a dead Doc and a time machine he can't get to work again.
 
I always wondered what Marty's future would have been like if he hadn't gone back to 1955 in the first place, as there would have been no truck or totaled car for him to hit that rolls royce.
 
Robbie Amell would love to return to The Flash.

"I am not back this season. They’re just finishing up the season [2] finale, and I wasn’t available… and they didn’t ask me. There were a lot of really big storylines to tie up and I had dinner with Greg Berlanti the other night and I asked him for all the spoilers and he gave them to me, and you guys are in for one incredible final stretch of season 2. But I would love to go back. I told him: ‘Whenever I’m available, whenever you want me, I’m there.’ I would prefer to go back as Firestorm [rather] than Deathstorm. I loved playing Deathstorm but I think it’s tougher to have a serious arc if I’m going back as a bad guy, because I just won’t last as long.”
 
In other words, "Hey, this movie career move didn't work out as well as I thought, any chance I could get my old job back?".
 
Was "How long was I gone?" it, or did I miss something? I'd think they would have made a slightly bigger deal of it, if only having Barry mention that he'd been to another universe. (You'd think he'd want to make sure that doesn't happen accidentally again.)
 
I'm a few episodes behind, but I've just got to know: Is there still a chance to see a heroic, helmet-wearing Jay Garrick Flash or has the Hunter Zolomon reveal completely torched that?
 
I think I would have liked the episode better had it all been about Hunters origin. We could at least learn why more speed will keep Hunter alive. I did like the Joe and Wally stuff. Way to much Star Wars referencing from Cisco.
 
This was the first episode this season to disappoint my anticipation.

First of all, yeah the Barry doesn't even mention to them that he just visited another universe and met another superhero?! WTF?

Second of all, I was really not satisfied with the Zoom backstory. I really liked the idea of two sets of identical twins. This just seemed to be the simplest explanation possible. My least favorite part was the "the guy killed was my younger self who I convinced to let himself get murdered by me" thing. Zoom is a psychopath who cares only about himself and no-one else. So why would another version of him allow himself to be killed? Isn't his own life the only thing that actually matters to him?

Also, after we saw Zoom kill "Jay" he seemed to look down at the body in shock and confusion. But we learned he planned it all along. Also, if he was getting sealed away into Earth-2 anyway in that moment, what was the point of killing "Jay" in front of them? He was probably never going to see them again.

Third of all, if there was only ever one Jay/Zoom, then how did "Flash" and "Zoom" have this long standing rivalry on Earth Two? He just kept pulling the speed-echo trick over and over? This fooled Wells, over and over?

Hopefully the Hooded Prisoner reveal is super cool. :techman:
 
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