Spoilers The Flash - Season 2

[Dick Whitman]

Didn't season one mention that the current universe was really an alternate timeline since Reverse Flash had speed up the timeline giving Barry his powers early in order to get home quicker? I assume that Nora lived originally and Barry became the Flash in his 30s since it has been mentioned that he was always meant to be the Flash.

Yes!

I have been wanting remind everyone of this myself. I have never been a fan of the Flashpoint Paradox in the comics or the movie. The basic premise is that the Reverse Flash is allowed to alternate the past but Barry is not able to ever fix it.

For decades one of the basic appeals of Barry Allen was he was just an ordinary good guy before he got struck by lightening. He had no traumatic event in his past. He was rare case of superhero with two living parents.

I liked it for this show because it gave John Wesley Shipp a good role. But it was clear they had no idea what to do with Henry out of prison. Now they gave him a better role with more options.

I do not think they will or should rewrite the show's whole history permantly. But I still do not like the idea that the whole series is an alternate timeline because the bad guy is allowed to change the past. But the hero is not...

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a COMPLETEY different timeline since Barry went back to get tachyon technology from Thawne.

Just because the only noticeable change is that Rafferty is a good guy now, and they spent a year making anti wraith technology while fighting Zoom...

UM?

Zoom, "Jay Garrick" should have/would have helped them invent anti time wraith tech, and even if he didn't help, he was sure as #### watching over their shoulder to see how to make an anti time wraith gun, because time wraiths are always getting up in his jam.

 

[The Old Mixer]

If Barry winds up engaging in multiple attempts to fix the timeline, he could cause a space/time crisis that does involve other Earths. A time travel paradox is exactly how the big portal to Earth-2 was opened.

 

[DigificWriter]

What's to stop them from combining E-1 and E-SG? Maybe when Barry tries to go back to E-SG, something happens and the two merge (visual like the effect when the Enterprise -C comes thru the rift and the Enterprise-D bridge changes). Memories would be altered, but the LoT group may remember and maybe Barry and some of his people (Vibe, et al). But all of a sudden, they know of Supergirl and Superman and vice-versa. That may be the only difference in E-1 and E-SG, the superheroes and villains in each. Just a idea.
Crisis on 2 Earths!

They'd be throwing out everything they'd already set up. The two universes are fundamentally incompatible when it comes to their established histories.

Do people really want large swaths of Arrow Seasons 2 and 3 and the entirety of Arrow Season 4 and The Flash Seasons 1 and 2 to be rendered out-of-continuity just for the sake of having all of these characters on the same Earth? Because that is what would have to happen in order for you to get what you want.

I laid this out elsewhere, but it's appropriate here too:

- The events surrounding Oliver's fight with Slade change because superpowers are a known thing, rendering much of Season 2 of Arrow out-of-continuity

- The entire first and second seasons of The Flash are rendered out-of-continuity

- The nature of Oliver's fights with villains like Brick and Damien Darhk changes based on the known existence of superpowers, rendering portions of Arrow Season 3 and the entirety of Arrow Season 4 out-of-continuity

- Worlds Finest is rendered out-of-continuity

- Much of Legends of Tomorrow is rendered out-of-continuity because the known existence of aliens changes the way in which the Time Masters behave towards Vandal Savage's tyranny because they don't need his actions to guard against the arrival of the Thanagarians

A combined universe in which all of Berlanti's DC series have always taken place on the same Earth would be one in which the existence of aliens and the public knowledge and acceptance of superpowers would predate Oliver being stuck on Lian Yu by at least 5 years. This one fact would fundamentally change the way that Oliver evolves as a hero because it would alter the way he dealt with Mirakuru, Brother Blood, Slade, Isabel, Cyrus Gold, Brick, Double Down, and Damien Darhk because he and his allies would know how to deal with those kinds of superpowered threats without the existence of said threats coming as a surprise.... which would therefore render the seasons in which we saw them deal with said threats out-of-continuity.

Applying things to Legends, you would have a situation wherein Earth has been aware of the existence of aliens for well over 60 years by the time Vandal Savage rises to power, meaning that it would not take his tyranny to unite Earth and stand against the Thanagarian invasion of the 2170s (which is why the Time Masters refused to do anything about him), completely changing the way that Legends played itself out and thereby rendering it out-of-continuity.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Yes!

I have been wanting remind everyone of this myself. I have never been a fan of the Flashpoint Paradox in the comics or the movie. The basic premise is that the Reverse Flash is allowed to alternate the past but Barry is not able to ever fix it.

For decades one of the basic appeals of Barry Allen was he was just an ordinary good guy before he got struck by lightening. He had no traumatic event in his past. He was rare case of superhero with two living parents.

I liked it for this show because it gave John Wesley Shipp a good role. But it was clear they had no idea what to do with Henry out of prison. Now they gave him a better role with more options.

I do not think they will or should rewrite the show's whole history permantly. But I still do not like the idea that the whole series is an alternate timeline because the bad guy is allowed to change the past. But the hero is not...

I think even more than John Wesley Shipp, (who has been great), we wouldn't have had Jesse Martin as Joe West. He's help create that "normal" family atmosphere that shows how a family can be a benefit.

Although it would be nice to have a "normal" person become a superhero as you described... And movie Superman sure don't count...his parents were grumpy old people.

And regarding how the bad guy "wins" by doing something the hero has to choose not to do...isn't that why they are the bad guy?

They'd be throwing out everything they'd already set up. The two universes are fundamentally incompatible when it comes to their established histories.

Do people really want large swaths of Arrow Seasons 2 and 3 and the entirety of Arrow Season 4 and The Flash Seasons 1 and 2 to be rendered out-of-continuity just for the sake of having all of these characters on the same Earth? Because that is what would have to happen in order for you to get what you want.

I laid this out elsewhere, but it's appropriate here too:

Holy exaggeration, Batman!

A couple of tweAks... Like how Superman is an alien, not a meta-human.Also his activity is mostly easy coast.

Trek fans can reconcile TOS with itself as well as TNG and later series. DCW fans can as well.

By the way, I WOULD like Felicity's 3 sexual relationships and goth days erased.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ How convenient for your argument that you cut out the parts of my post where I outlined specifically why you cannot retroactively combine the two universes.

 

[Christopher]

I'm tired of arguing why combining the universes is a bad idea. I just don't understand why so many people think it would be a good idea. I have yet to hear one person offer a plausible argument for that besides "Well, they did it 30 years ago in the comics." Leaving out the part where they spent the past 25-plus years in the comics reversing it in one way or another.

 

[Mr Light]

I would be shocked if Supergirl arrives on the CW, does eight-ish episodes in the season one world, then does a December crossover that basically eliminates that world and dumps her in the Arrowverse. Seems like if they were going to make that change, it would be front street, for branding and production reasons.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I'm tired of arguing why combining the universes is a bad idea. I just don't understand why so many people think it would be a good idea. I have yet to hear one person offer a plausible argument for that besides "Well, they did it 30 years ago in the comics." Leaving out the part where they spent the past 25-plus years in the comics reversing it in one way or another.

I'm with you Christopher. I think the DCU lost something when they tried to compress the JSA, JLA, TT, YJ and 3 LOSH teams all into one universe and timeline. They never really worked out what to do with the JSA, until the 99-2011 era. And when they did, the JSA was pretty much on it's own island with very few crossovers with the JL and other characters. Johns in particular used a lot of tricks like retcons, compressed timelines, slower aging etc to keep those original members alive and on the team. Same can be said for the Crime Syndicate of Earth 3.

 

[The Old Mixer]

If Barry's attempts to fix things result in a portal-worthy paradox, I could see them engaging in a sort of mini-Crisis as a crossover event...not to merge the Earths in the end, but to have the sort of space/time weirdness that was going on in the middle of COIE...different worlds and times temporarily amalgamated. That would be a good point to have Supergirl interacting with the Earth-1 casts.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^ How convenient for your argument that you cut out the parts of my post where I outlined specifically why you cannot retroactively combine the two universes.

You don't have to mash the two universes together.

Supergirl indigenous to Kypton 1 "should" be on Earth 1 by 2016 if whatever reason she isn't on Earth 1 didn't happen, but it did, so she isn't.

If there's a reason that Krypton 1 Supergirl never made it to Earth 1, and Superman never made it to Earth 1 for that matter, whatever reason that was that the Kryptonians from Krypton 1 didn't arrive on Earth 1, all you have to do is accidentally or wittingly amend that reason, and then there's a Supergirl on Earth SG and a Supergirl on Earth 1.

2 Supergirls.

2 different people, just like Barry has a doppelgänger in Earth 2.

 

[Photoman15]

They'd be throwing out everything they'd already set up. The two universes are fundamentally incompatible when it comes to their established histories.

Do people really want large swaths of Arrow Seasons 2 and 3 and the entirety of Arrow Season 4 and The Flash Seasons 1 and 2 to be rendered out-of-continuity just for the sake of having all of these characters on the same Earth? Because that is what would have to happen in order for you to get what you want.

I laid this out elsewhere, but it's appropriate here too:

Nothing would be rendered out of continuity. The merge happens in 2016 (just in time for November sweeps) and moves on from there. Since they're doing a 4 way in Nov/Dec, there can be a meet and greet and E-1SG continues on.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I love Jesse L Martin on the show. Can not imagine the show without him.

The issue that he can not save his mother in the comics was not a moral issue. It was justified by using Butterfly Effect. That that small change would drastically affect the whole universe. But that is total BS!

The DC universe existed fine before The Reverse Flash changed it. It's a false choice they created for drama. it's not like his mom dying was the original timeline.

I am not sure what the solution is to be honest. I like many of the characters in Barry's altered life. But Joe probably would have been a mentor to him on the Police Force even if hemline not raise him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was more going on in Flash Point the comic book, or the author was an idiot.

Kal-El missed Kansas.

Not because of cause and (the butterfly) effect, but because of a "shockwave" creating temporal tremors that reached back in time, and forward in time, like some kind of concussive time force ripple, and that is what clipped Kal-El's ship.

Changing time (according to this bullshit) causes an instability in time that changes more time?

"####."

I don't know who's older, but Barry Allen was not older than 10 when Baby Clark Kent landed on Earth.

By that reackoning, reversing Nora's death would not reverse all the changes, and in fact then create even more unpredictable alteration to time ten and twenty years before (and after) Nora did and/or did not die.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There was more going on in Flash Point the comic book, or the author was an idiot.

Kal-El missed Kansas.

Not because of cause and (the butterfly) effect, but because of a "shockwave" creating temporal tremors that reached back in time, and forward in time, like some kind of concussive time force ripple, and that is what clipped Kal-El's ship.

Changing time (according to this bullshit) causes an instability in time that changes more time?

"####."

I don't know who's older, but Barry Allen was not older than 10 when Baby Clark Kent landed on Earth.

By that reackoning, reversing Nora's death would not reverse all the changes, and in fact then create even more unpredictable alteration to time ten and twenty years before (and after) Nora did and/or did not die.

Ripple effect .

Or the writer was drinking too much Ripple when he wrote it.

 

[Mike Farley]

There was more going on in Flash Point the comic book, or the author was an idiot.

Kal-El missed Kansas.

Not because of cause and (the butterfly) effect, but because of a "shockwave" creating temporal tremors that reached back in time, and forward in time, like some kind of concussive time force ripple, and that is what clipped Kal-El's ship.

Changing time (according to this bullshit) causes an instability in time that changes more time?

"####."

I don't know who's older, but Barry Allen was not older than 10 when Baby Clark Kent landed on Earth.

By that reackoning, reversing Nora's death would not reverse all the changes, and in fact then create even more unpredictable alteration to time ten and twenty years before (and after) Nora did and/or did not die.

And how did repairing the timeline result in the Wildstorm and DC Vertigo Earths merging with core DC Earth? And why did any of it result in the rewriting of the Multiverse from what it was shown to be post-Infinite Crisis to the post-Flashpoint version shown in Multiversity?

 

[Dick Whitman]

My biggest issue with DC's history of reboots and merging of Earths is they have ever bothered to make in story reasons. In other media they just start over. They never have to explain everytime we get a new Superman or Batman in movies or tv. These events are almost always horrible storytelling.

 

[JD]

They really don't even need to merge universes to have Supergirl Season 2 happen on Earth 1, maybe they could just have the Sg cast come through a portal and end up stranded on our Earth.
I haven't seen the few LoT episodes yet, so I don't know exactly what it established about Earth and aliens, but they could always have their arrival somehow get other aliens attention, and then we could have the same basic set up as we had on Sg Season 1, and we don't have to change any of the universes.
Thinking about it more, I think there are ways they could do an extended Flashpoint story without it affecting the other shows. Even if the story goes on for a while, it will probably all be reset to a point before any of it happened, so it won't affect the other show anyways. I could even see them trying to make it a big mystery of how Barry fixed things.

 

[Phoenix219]

And how did repairing the timeline result in the Wildstorm and DC Vertigo Earths merging with core DC Earth? And why did any of it result in the rewriting of the Multiverse from what it was shown to be post-Infinite Crisis to the post-Flashpoint version shown in Multiversity?

Because it turns out that Barry and the Time Travel / Flashpoint isn't what changed the Universes, but instead the outside meddling influence of something unexpected and *cosmic* in nature that happened to do it while the timeline was maleable due to Barry. So, I would assume that those shockwaves were also outside influence, and not normal butterfly effect time travel changes.

 

[Morpheus 02]

I'm with you Christopher. I think the DCU lost something when they tried to compress the JSA, JLA, TT, YJ and 3 LOSH teams all into one universe and timeline. They never really worked out what to do with the JSA, until the 99-2011 era. And when they did, the JSA was pretty much on it's own island with very few crossovers with the JL and other characters. Johns in particular used a lot of tricks like retcons, compressed timelines, slower aging etc to keep those original members alive and on the team. Same can be said for the Crime Syndicate of Earth 3.

I'm tired of arguing why combining the universes is a bad idea. I just don't understand why so many people think it would be a good idea. I have yet to hear one person offer a plausible argument for that besides "Well, they did it 30 years ago in the comics." Leaving out the part where they spent the past 25-plus years in the comics reversing it in one way or another.

Holy ignoring my previous comment, Batman!

And Holy over-exggeration, Batman.

We are talking just TWO worlds... NOT a COIE experience.

Can you at least admit that virtually no one on TrekBBS wants that Crisis to happen (or at least not until the newspaper headline from the future, in season 1, declared it)? Virtually no one wants Earth 2, 3, Earth-Gotham and others all merged in with Earth 1. Just the one show that so far has 3 superheroes. (and possibly Krypto the Super-dog...or who/whatever was in the spaceship in the SG finale)

I was there during COIE, and i know that was the dawn of the Bronze Age at DC, which messed tings up, and continued to do so as they tried to fix it.

But you are ignoring the silver age which had Superman (and the other Big 2) team up with Flash in the justice League and other comics, and also ignoring the years of cultural history, from my grade school lunch box to Superfriends to the current shirts they sell at Walmart & other retailers that hve Flash & Superman in the same shirt.

I am not up on WW2 history, but did GOlden Age Superman team up with Flash at all, and/or Green Arrow? If so, then that's MORE history of being in the same world.

But with DCW, Supergirl will basically take over for Superman & Wonder Woman...adding gender diversity in a way not forced, as some people complain about in certain mediums.

Also, Rip's line about men of Steel and Dark Knights...while purposely vague, leaves the door open for Superman & Batman to be a part of Earth 1 history...question is, how do we get there?

And thinking about the DCW in "real world terms"...these shows WILL expire at some point... having a Justice League will be a nice coda for the heroes to "retire" to. And a JL without a superbeing like Superman, Wonder WOman or Supergirl would be a bit weird. Having Supergirl be the superbeing being rather than Superman would be a nice "adaptation".

As for audience reaction...let me retiterate the different audiences:

1) Hardcore fan who knows a lot of the backstory., and usually cool with it (or happy to complain about it)
2) Newbies...often, this is the next generation, like my daughters or my friend's sons...and there are sually hrdcore fans there to happily explain the back story
3) Casual viewer... in most cases, so casual, they won't let people know..not by social media or by dropping ratings. They'll shrug it off. Certainly no crazier than Felcity stopping 15,000 nukes or the craziness on Hawaii 5-0

The merging of Earth-1 and Earth-SG will NOT affect Earth-IRL. There are a total (so far) of 7 seasons of DCW shows (8 if you include Supergirl)... the merging will wipe away what, 12 minutes of DIALOGUE from literally over 100 hours of shows. people will recover and move on. I doubt there will be huge protests, even on social media. The positive buzz will outweigh the haters. The "trending topic" will talk about fans who like it, not focus on the haters (as opposed to the changes made from Trank's FF movie)

Being on TrekBBS, surely you have seen how fans rationalize inconcsistencies, no?

One easy way,is to say that Earth 1 sees a huge difference between metahumans (superpowered, but form Earth) and aliens (like Superman).

Also, it seems that Superman is focused on the East Coast, mostly Metropolis. That may seem like a different world that almost isn't real, and doesn't affect one's daily life. Kinda like how white suburbans see the "inner city". Or how the west is oblivious to the daily life of one in the Third World.

Just like white suburbanites think gun violence is an "inner city/urban problem", that's how residents might have felt about Superbeings coming to their part of the country.

And one last thought...What world, BTW, will Batman and Wonder Woman reside? Earth 1 or Earth-SG?