The Flag of the Federation

[Albertese]

So, the USA has the Stars and Stripes. The CSA had the Stars and Bars. The UK has the Union Jack. Pirates had the Jolly Roger. Do you suppose there's a cute name like these for the flag of the Federation? Do you suppose any such name would change as the flag itself changed from the one we see on Spock's "coffin" in Star Trek II to the one we see in DS9?

Discuss.

 

[Timo]

What would be the difference? Isn't the change just in minor stylistic details?

For all we know, the main motif, of some sort of laurels surrounding some sort of a circle featuring some sort of a starfield, has remained unchanged from the first post-Archer days, through TOS (where we only saw these dark blue flags on near-vertical poles and thus folded so that we couldn't see the (absence of the) central motif), till the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

Stars and Laurels (regularly misspelled as Stans and Laurels)? Vega with Veggies? Earth in Crosshairs?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

What would be the difference? Isn't the change just in minor stylistic details?

For all we know, the main motif, of some sort of laurels surrounding some sort of a circle featuring some sort of a starfield, has remained unchanged from the first post-Archer days,

No, we have direct evidence of the Federation Flag and emblem evolving over time.

Stars and Laurels (regularly misspelled as Stans and Laurels)? Vega with Veggies? Earth in Crosshairs?

If it has a nickname, I would imagine that it's probably something like "Stars and Laurels." Maybe "Stars and Wreaths" or "Stars and Branches."

 

[Timo]

No, we have direct evidence of the Federation Flag and emblem evolving over time.

Why do you say "no"? We (you, me, Bernd, Jörg) seem to be in full agreement over this.

That is, the flag has evolved over time - but it has never changed in terms of the main motifs, which include the laurels, the starfield, and the circle.

The part that is speculation is whether this symbol was in use between 2160 and 2260. As the article shows it does appear in 2160, on the wall of the hall where Archer gives his speech. But the earliest later appearance of the symbol, retroactively speaking, would be in "IaM,D", proving the use in the mid-2260s, while my speculation/pretense is that the symbol was also present on those folded flags that we saw in Kirk's briefing room. And one might argue that the version painted on the SF HQ shuttle pier floor is an old one, not recently added as of the early 2270s. But we lack references to this symbol from the early-to-mid 23rd century - until STXI premieres, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

No, we have direct evidence of the Federation Flag and emblem evolving over time.

Why do you say "no"? We (you, me, Bernd, Jörg) seem to be in full agreement over this.

That is, the flag has evolved over time - but it has never changed in terms of the main motifs, which include the laurels, the starfield, and the circle.

Timo Saloniemi

Ooooh, okay, I see what you mean. Gotcha.

I thought you were trying to say that the emblem itself has been unchanged even in details.

 

[Timo]

Yup, sorry about the confusion - I don't really give my rantings half the proofreading they'd require.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Darth Picardous]

They may call it the Tristar after the three bright stars in the emblem. The only question is as the Federation expands whether more bright stars are added to th flag?

 

[Gotham Central]

What would be the difference? Isn't the change just in minor stylistic details?

For all we know, the main motif, of some sort of laurels surrounding some sort of a circle featuring some sort of a starfield, has remained unchanged from the first post-Archer days,

No, we have direct evidence of the Federation Flag and emblem evolving over time.

Stars and Laurels (regularly misspelled as Stans and Laurels)? Vega with Veggies? Earth in Crosshairs?

If it has a nickname, I would imagine that it's probably something like "Stars and Laurels." Maybe "Stars and Wreaths" or "Stars and Branches."

Those are NOT laurel leaves. Laurel is for victory. Those are olive branches (just as in the UN seal). Olive branches are for peace. The symbolism being that the starfield encompased by the olive branches are bound together in peace.

 

[sbk1234]

What would be the difference? Isn't the change just in minor stylistic details?

For all we know, the main motif, of some sort of laurels surrounding some sort of a circle featuring some sort of a starfield, has remained unchanged from the first post-Archer days, through TOS (where we only saw these dark blue flags on near-vertical poles and thus folded so that we couldn't see the (absence of the) central motif), till the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

Stars and Laurels (regularly misspelled as Stans and Laurels)? Vega with Veggies? Earth in Crosshairs?

Timo Saloniemi

Would that be like a laurel and hardy handshake?

 

[Sci]

What would be the difference? Isn't the change just in minor stylistic details?

For all we know, the main motif, of some sort of laurels surrounding some sort of a circle featuring some sort of a starfield, has remained unchanged from the first post-Archer days,

No, we have direct evidence of the Federation Flag and emblem evolving over time.

Stars and Laurels (regularly misspelled as Stans and Laurels)? Vega with Veggies? Earth in Crosshairs?

If it has a nickname, I would imagine that it's probably something like "Stars and Laurels." Maybe "Stars and Wreaths" or "Stars and Branches."

Those are NOT laurel leaves. Laurel is for victory. Those are olive branches (just as in the UN seal). Olive branches are for peace. The symbolism being that the starfield encompased by the olive branches are bound together in peace.

I'm aware, but that wouldn't automatically stop that from becoming a common nickname for it. "The Stars and Bars," for instance, is a common nickname for the Confederate naval jack, even though it was originally applied to the first Confederate flag which is today rarely ever seen.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I tried looking for a nickname for the U.N. flag, thinking that a nickname might have evolved out of that much as the design itself appears to have done. No luck.

But, while looking, a nickname did occur to me: "The Alpha Blue", indicative both of where the Federation lies, and of a belief in a sort of manifest destiny - that ultimately, the Romulans, Klingons, etc, will all join in the brotherhood of the humanities.

Sort of adds a little something to Kruge's comment about the flag, if the other species in the Alpha Quadrant saw what it represents as a little threat to their current ways of life.

 

[Sci]

I tried looking for a nickname for the U.N. flag, thinking that a nickname might have evolved out of that much as the design itself appears to have done. No luck.

But, while looking, a nickname did occur to me: "The Alpha Blue", indicative both of where the Federation lies, and of a belief in a sort of manifest destiny - that ultimately, the Romulans, Klingons, etc, will all join in the brotherhood of the humanities.

Sort of adds a little something to Kruge's comment about the flag, if the other species in the Alpha Quadrant saw what it represents as a little threat to their current ways of life.

I like it. There's a slight problem, though -- the Federation is almost evenly divided between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I like it. There's a slight problem, though -- the Federation is almost evenly divided between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

Dang. For some reason, I was thinking the Federation at least started in the Alpha, but I just looked at a map, and that's not right, obviously.

And "The A-B Blue" just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

Maybe a feminization of it? "The Abby Blue"?

 

[Sci]

I like it. There's a slight problem, though -- the Federation is almost evenly divided between the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

Dang. For some reason, I was thinking the Federation at least started in the Alpha, but I just looked at a map, and that's not right, obviously.

And "The A-B Blue" just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it?

Maybe a feminization of it? "The Abby Blue"?

I like that one.

Slight divergence in topic:

I was thinking about the fact that the Federation Flag has the legend "UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS" written in English beneath the seal, and I wondered, just randomly, if perhaps that's only one valid language to put on there. Maybe different versions of the Federation Flag with the same words written in the various languages of the Federation Member States is just as legally valid, and the English one is just the "default" version that the Federation government uses only because Earth is the capital?

 

[iguana_tonante]

I've always thought of it as "The Flag Full of Stars". It could be a good nickname for the slightly different versions from all series. Alternatively, "The Big Blue" could be nice.

 

[Timo]

I was thinking about the fact that the Federation Flag has the legend "UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS" written in English beneath the seal, and I wondered, just randomly, if perhaps that's only one valid language to put on there. Maybe different versions of the Federation Flag with the same words written in the various languages of the Federation Member States is just as legally valid, and the English one is just the "default" version that the Federation government uses only because Earth is the capital?

Good question. Starfleet starships have English-only text, too - apparently including the Vulcan-crewed, Vulcan-named T'Kumbra which we briefly saw in the teaser of "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".

Much would depend on whether the Universal Translator can translate text, too. Our heroes and villains are almost alarmingly good at reading alien text, at least after the timeframe of ST3:TSfS. Nog in "Little Green Men" never sets his instructional PADD about Earth to Ferengi text, for example...

Perhaps UT implants indeed allow for visual in addition to aural translation, making the choice of flag language moot. English could be the UFP standard just because something has to be used, and any symbolism in the choice would come as a bonus.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

It could simply be called "The Union."

 

[uniderth]

I thought that the language of the Federation was English, aka. Federation Standard.

 

[Timo]

It might be the official language of Earth, I guess. But it's not seen on Vulcan, a Federation member world (except when a former Vulcan from Starfleet takes a test in ST3 - and it might be part of the test that it is in a foreign language!).

Yet the various Enterprises and other hero starships have had their computer displays set on English, and the door labels are in that language as well. So perhaps we could argue that Starfleet uses English as its official language. Or then we just happen to follow the adventures of English starships...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

True, but French is the official language of the United Nations. But that doesn't mean we all have to speak French in the USA.

Sorry for disagreeing with you in two different threads in one throw.