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The *Final* DS9 Morality Survey (Spoilers!)

Posted by vermillion:

Too bad this is your last DS9 morality poll. Can we expect something similar in the future (other forum maybe?) or are you giving up on these for good?

I'm done with DS9, that's for sure. 3 surveys and 50 questions is enough, otherwise it would get down to very simple questions. ;)

As for the other series, it's up to the fans of Voyager to do an exclusive Voyager morality survey, TOS fans to do TOS, etc. because they know those series better than I do. I visit those forums a lot less so I doubt I would be able to do them justice anyway.

I could do a General Trek survey, though.
 
On the Kasidy situation: I believe it is always right to deliver medical supplies to those who need them. I also believe, however, that if you're going to engage in criminal activity as a matter of conscience, it is unfair to involve others without their knowledge, even if you feel their stance on the matter is unreasonable.

On the Kira Meru issue, I don't see that as her moral dilemna. She was under duress. Any moral responsibility in that case is Dukat's. I would say "She did what she had to do," full stop. I would feel the same way whether she had a family or not.

On the Dax/Tandro situation, I believe that cheating, or participating in someone else's cheating, is never the right thing to do. So, Dirty Old Man. :)

As for Kira bombing civilians, I believe that a member of an occupying nation who lives on occupied land is supporting that occupation. They are not innocent victims of whatever resistence they may encounter. (I say this, mind you, with no clear idea of how much choice Prin had. Was he bound to the family he served, with no ability to find employment elsewhere? I would consider people without freedom of movement an exception here, as they are oppressed themselves.) I'm also a pacifist who favours non-violent resistence techniques. I would say that, as a limited moral relativist, I support Kira's actions, but I wouldn't say they were right for me, and I would encourage oppressed people to use non-violent tactics first.

Bilby: crime for profit motive is never the right choice, especially when you have a family who might be threatened.

Bashir's parents: if Julian had serious problems that could be solved with genetic enhancement, Federation law would have allowed the procedure. They risked Julian's mental and physical health for their own peace of mind.

Odo allowing innocent people to be executed: Odo failed to meet his own moral and professional standards here. I don't know enough about the situation and the pressure he was under to judge him. (We can't get an objective picture of the situation from the distorted flashbacks of a man with a guilty conscience.)

Bashir and Bareil: Bareil, an adult with no mental health problems, refused to lose any more of his individuality by submitting to further procedures. Forcing them on him would have been completely and absolutely wrong. (I haven't seen the episode in awhile. Did Bareil ask Bashir to take the action of removing life support, or did they simply allow him to die? Either way, Bareil's wishes were paramount and I think it was right to respect them.)

Kira in Progress: the people on that moon had been fully informed of the consequences of staying, and were still determined to stay. They should have been allowed to do so. (I still wonder why the Bajoran government didn't settle the moon and farm it. It was such a nice moon, and the planet itself still had poisoned soil and crop shortages. Was the energy they gained so tremendous and long-lasting that it was really more beneficial than settlement, or was the Bajoran government just really short-sighted?)

Sanctuary: I also wonder why the Bajoran government turned away an entire people of farmers who were willing to help make Bajor self-sufficient. Of course, I don't know what kind of population density Bajor had. I don't think it's wrong to turn away refugees if you truly don't have room/resources for them, but if you do, I feel you must welcome them. Turning away refugees they can afford to take is one of the worst things a nation can do.

Keiko vs. Winn: The way you've posed this question doesn't address the fact that Winn wasn't acting in good faith, but using her religion as a tool. I'll address Keiko's part in the matter. Keiko didn't know that Winn wasn't sincere until well into the dispute, and I think she should have worked harder to find a compromise. Especially since there was nothing in Bajoran belief about the wormhole that was inconsistent with the science she was teaching. (Nothing that the viewers got to hear about, anyway.) Keiko struck me, in this episode, as just as fundamentalist and unreasonable as Winn.

Rom's assassination attempt: if Rom's attempt had been made where it wasn't illegal, I would acknowledge his right to follow his culture's rules. I'd also encourage the Ferengi to reconsider those rules. :)

Worf and Kor: Absolute power and such. :)

Tom Riker: This stumps me. It's not an episode I particularly enjoy, so I haven't seen it in quite awhile. I guess my answer would be "I don't care." :)

Garak: I feel that, by Cardassian standards, he was a moral man. I don't agree with Cardassian standards, though. I find him fascinating and attractive and safely fictional; I wouldn't actually want to be around someone like him in RL.

Dukat: Evil. I feel that, by both Cardassian standards and mine, Dukat was immoral. He cheated on his wife, he raped Bajoran women, and he was more concerned about his own power than the good of the state or his family. His attitude to the Bajoran people was the classic "White Man's Burden" load of bullshit. I believe his interaction with Ziyal was tainted with incestuous subtext. (I should make clear that I don't think he touched her or anything. SUBtext. Not text.)

Section 31: a symptom of the only thing a true moral relativist can condemn: hypocrisy. If the Federation practiced what it preached, Section 31 wouldn't exist. As I believe that people should practice what they preach, I obviously feel it shouldn't exist. :)

Genocide, etc... challenged Roddenberry’s vision which helped reinforce his ideas and made DS9 stronger as a Star Trek series.

Where hypocrisy and corruption is revealed and examined, it can be eradicated.
 
Posted by Kevin Fajo:
Posted by Sakrysta:
Posted by Kevin Fajo:
"We choose things and then we lose things"- Sondheim :)
YOU ARE MY NEW BEST FRIEND! :D

(Even if you did get the order backwards - "we lose," then "we choose." ;))

Are you a Sondheim fan in general, or just Sunday in the Park with George?

Oh yes I apologize for flip-flopping! Never quote the brilliance of Sondheim before coffee!!

All Sondheim rocks. I don't love Passion but Sunday is my favorite. Ifyou are able to get to Broadway in the next few weeks I recommend Assassins at Studio 54. It is one of my personal favorites and the production is immensely moving. Into the Woods (not the revival) and Sweeny Todd and Company and on and on and on and on. I think Sondheim is my religion! :)
*cries because she lives in stupid GEORGIA*

So, no Assassins for me. :( But Sunday is my favorite too! I can watch/listen to it over and over and never get tired of it. I remember the first time I heard it, listening to Franz sing about k-nick k-nacks and thinking, "Man, that voice sounds familiar!" :lol: And that musical made me fall in love with Mandy Patinkin. *sighs* Into the Woods is probably my second favorite. Passion is "eh," but it has so many good songs that show up on people's solo albums that I can't completely not like it. And besides, Donna Murphy is exquisite!

*could rattle on for days and days about Sondheim*

A buddy of mine wrote this for me a couple years ago when I was bummed. You'll like it - trust me!

Vorta: But how was I to know, that your captain had also hidden in his starship...

Kira/Worf: What?

Vorta: Breens!

Kira/Worf: Breens?

Vorta: My special Breens! I let him know I didn't know he's stolen my Breens. I was watching enthralled at all he mauled, when Bang! Flash! The phasers flashed! And... well, that's another story, never mind. Anyway... So when the big day came, I laid my claim, went to take away the station they shrieked and screeched. But I did it and I hid it where it'll never be reached. You're captain cried and Jadzia died and for extra measure (I admit it was a pleasure) I said, "Sorry, I'm still not mollified!" And I laid a little spell on them - you too hon... That you're Federation would always have Section 31! Heh heh... heh heh heh... Heh heh heh heh *Sigh* So, there's no more fuss and there's no more scenes, the Dominion thrives (you should see our nectarines!), but I'm telling you the same we tell kings and queens. Don't never, never, ever mess around with our beings - especially the Breens!

by unnamed crewman with apologies to Steve
 
Great poll, as usual! ;)

And once again, some of these questions are *very* close, in terms of numbers of respondents voting different ways!

Most interesting!

And DS9Fan2...you can do a Trek one, if you like. Same rules as the survivor threads though...if you want to find out what *Niners* think, do it in here. Otherwise, you might want to do it in GTD. Just let me know your plans...
 
Posted by mrs260:
Keiko vs. Winn: The way you've posed this question doesn't address the fact that Winn wasn't acting in good faith, but using her religion as a tool.

I know. If I had, it wouldn't have been a question about the fundamental issue at hand that the episode posed(religious philosophy in school), it would have just been a question about Kai Winn's motives, and I don't think you can get a lot of discussion or thought out of that, since we'd all agree that her ways of manipulating religion to get ahead in politics was wrong.

Vash, if I do a General Trek survey, it would probably be best to have it in GTD if that's ok.
 
Posted by DS9 Fan 2:
Posted by mrs260:
Keiko vs. Winn: The way you've posed this question doesn't address the fact that Winn wasn't acting in good faith, but using her religion as a tool.

I know. If I had, it wouldn't have been a question about the fundamental issue at hand that the episode posed(religious philosophy in school), it would have just been a question about Kai Winn's motives, and I don't think you can get a lot of discussion or thought out of that, since we'd all agree that her ways of manipulating religion to get ahead in politics was wrong.

Ah, I see. Personally, I feel she may have been more open to discussion and compromise if she were sincere, and that affects how I assess the situation.

As for religion in school generally, I am against indoctrination but not against education. I feel that teaching students about various religious beliefs and cultures is important--especially if the students are in a rather homogenous area. I don't feel it's ethical to teach students that one set of religious beliefs or another are factual. Not in a public school, anyway.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough. Let me give you an example or two: in several of my history and social studies classes, when we learned about prehistory, we were taught a number of different creation myths, then one or two scientific theories.

When I was in Grade 8, we were supposed to write an essay about the origins of the universe. We were allowed to choose either a scientific or religious theory about which to write.

I feel a bit different about Bajoran beliefs. As I said in my original post, we didn't hear anything about Bajoran beliefs about the wormhole that was inconsistent with the science Keiko was teaching. I certainly don't think that Winn was being completely reasonable, but neither, as I said before, was Keiko.
 
Wow, that's interesting to hear that several people also thought Keiko was being unreasonable too. I thought that was just me.

I think every religion should be covered in school...religion has effected history too much to ignore it. If Keiko ignored the Bajoran religion, she would have been ignoring the exact same thing which got Bajorans through the Occupation, and something that drives the Bajoran culture...and understanding Bajorans better is important considering that they were living on Bajoran property in a Bajoran system, trying to get Bajoran admittance into the Federation. ;)
 
^With lots of Bajoran students under her tutilage. I think thats how you spell that. Keiko was a little lax in her judgement and Winn turns out to be scrupulous as well. Maybe there is no right answer. :)

Wonderful Into The Woods usage- I wish Bernadette Peters could teach Jeffrey Combs to sing it! I am saving this thread for that alone! :)
 
Posted by Sakrysta:

A buddy of mine wrote this for me a couple years ago when I was bummed. You'll like it - trust me!

Vorta: But how was I to know, that your captain had also hidden in his starship...

Kira/Worf: What?

Vorta: Breens!

Kira/Worf: Breens?

Vorta: My special Breens! I let him know I didn't know he's stolen my Breens. I was watching enthralled at all he mauled, when Bang! Flash! The phasers flashed! And... well, that's another story, never mind. Anyway... So when the big day came, I laid my claim, went to take away the station they shrieked and screeched. But I did it and I hid it where it'll never be reached. You're captain cried and Jadzia died and for extra measure (I admit it was a pleasure) I said, "Sorry, I'm still not mollified!" And I laid a little spell on them - you too hon... That you're Federation would always have Section 31! Heh heh... heh heh heh... Heh heh heh heh *Sigh* So, there's no more fuss and there's no more scenes, the Dominion thrives (you should see our nectarines!), but I'm telling you the same we tell kings and queens. Don't never, never, ever mess around with our beings - especially the Breens!

by unnamed crewman with apologies to Steve

Hee, hee, I can see it now…

FEDERATION NEWS SERVICE>>BAJOR>>ASHALLAH>>ARTS AND CULTURE>>EVENTS

“Following last week’s entry of Bajor into the Federation, a new buzz is being heard at every Jumja stand and Temple entrance across the planet. Is it debate on Bajor’s role within the Federation? No. Is it speculation on who the Vedek Assembly will Choose as the new Kai? No. Is it about the current standings in the Springball Championships? NO…

From Llvia to Relliketh, Jo’Kala to Kran-Tobal, everyone’s talking about the newest production penned by Sonnam Stevahn: “Into the Wormhole”.

Hot on the heels of his latest theatrical successes “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Jolanda Forum” and “Sunday in the Park with Varani,” “Into the Wormhole” chronicles recent events from the Federation’s partnership with Bajor over the administration of Deep Space Nine to the discovery of the Celstial Temple, the Dominion War, and Bajor’s entry into the Federation from the perspective of the crew of DS9 and that most important of figures, the Emissary.

Dealing with a religious icon such as the Emissary has dulled none of Sonnam’s wit and irreverence, however: much to the consternation of more conservative elements within the Vedek Assembly.

“Hilarity? I call it Heresy!” stated Vedek Yevir, who had recently been rumoured to be a leading candidate for the next Kai. Judging from the packed houses night after night at the Capital Theatre in Ashallah, however, conservativism seems to be on the wane as Bajorans continue to bask in the glow of entry to the Federation.

While many leave the theatre commenting on the farcical nature of the musical, they are also touched deeply by its poigniancy. Curious yourself? Access the Central Archieve’s Theatre listings and book yourselves seats for a production that seems determined to write Sonnam’s name large across Bajor’s theatrical landscape. Be warned, though: if you’re the sort who longs for the days of the D’Jarras then this play may not be your cup of Ginger Tea…”

EDIT: Apologies to those who are being more serious in this thread but, as another Sondheim fan, I just couldn't resist! :D
 
:lol: *is trying very hard not to laugh out loud and draw attention to herself*

My, that was funny! :D
 
Brilliant! Great references and adaptations!

DS9Fan2- its some musical theatre humor. Stephen Sondheim is a brilliant lyricist and composer and wrote musicals like Into the Woods, Sunday In the Park with George, A Funny Thing Happened On the Way to the Forum, Follies, Company- endless great shows and so I started this unfortunately by misquoting my favorite. :)

I return you to your regularly sheduled morality discussions.
 
Great poll! It's interesting to see how many of the questions have an almost equal number of supporters for each response.

Except for the last; I'm glad we ALL agree that DS9 challenged Roddenbery's Trek only to make it stronger :cool:
 
Posted by kevsthaman:
Great poll! It's interesting to see how many of the questions have an almost equal number of supporters for each response.

Except for the last; I'm glad we ALL agree that DS9 challenged Roddenbery's Trek only to make it stronger :cool:

So am I! And although there may be fewer undecideds, the interesting thing about the results this time around is that there seems to be a lot more dissention in the answers you're all giving.
 
Kasidy Yates delivers supplies to the Maquis and betrays Sisko in For the Cause - Undecided

Kira Meru becomes a comfort woman for Dukat in Wrongs Darker than Death or Night - She did what she had to do for her family.

Curzon Dax has an affair with General Tandro's wife in Dax
- It was all right for Curzon to have an affiar since the marriage was loveless and General Tandro was a traitor.

Kira and others in the resistance bomb civilian targets during the Occupation according to Prin in The Darkness and the Light - Undecided

Bilby in Honor Among Thieves - A tragic figure who only turned to crime in the Orion Syndicate for his family.


Bashir's parents genetically enhanced him as a child in Dr. Bashir, I presume? - I don't see the harm in his case. It helped Bashir become a better doctor and save lives.

Odo allows three Bajoran innocents to die under his watch during the Occupation in Things Past - There was little Odo could do to prevent it.

Bashir cuts off Bariel's Life Support - Bariel's spark of life would have been gone if Bashir continued treating him. It was the right decision.

Kira evacuates a Bajoran against his will from a moon in Progress - She had to to save his life.


Bajor turns away millions of refugees in Sanctuary - Bajor is not Kentanna.

Vedek Winn opposed secular talk of the wormhole in Keiko O'Brien's classroom in In the Hands of the Prophets - Undecided

Rom conspires to assassinate Quark in The Nagus - It was wrong…no matter what the Rules of Acquisition are, opportunity shouldn’t be put ahead of family.


Worf and Kor each had plans to use the Sword of Kahless to lead the empire - In this case, absolute power corrupts absolutely.


Tom Riker steals the Defiant for the Maquis - His motives were selfish because he was only trying to be better than his counterpart, William Riker.


Garak - Maybe a little misguided, but he was right most of the time!

Dukat - Evil

Section 31 - Protecting the Federation or not, it had no business existing.


Genocide, murder, betrayal, lies, torture, greed, espionage, theft, government take-overs... - …challenged Roddenberry’s vision which helped reinforce his ideas and made DS9 stronger as a Star Trek series
 
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