Lorna
Lieutenant Commander
If it is warnable then there is nothing to debate, please give me the warning. I'm not the kind of person who will evade a warning if I've done something that deserves one.
The Federations Need For Multiple Ship Classes
- Thread starter Lorna
- Start date
If it is warnable then there is nothing to debate, please give me the warning. I'm not the kind of person who will evade a warning if I've done something that deserves one.
Could you explain more as to why you think that is? What makes the Multiclass tactically superior to all other ships (Starfleet and non Starfleet)?
We've seen in the show smaller vessels take on and destroy larger ships because of a clear tactical advantage. Weapons that could pass through shields like Dominion beam weapons could in the beginning. The Breen energy weapon is another example.
Lorna
Lieutenant Commander
Any tactical advantage such as phased polaron beams and the Breen dampening weapon would be an advantage against any size and class of Starfleet vessel.
The Scimitar had a tactical advantage over the Ent-E because it was bigger and had bigger shields and weapons and could fire whilst cloaked. It makes no difference that the Federation had multiple sizes and classes of ship, the Scimitar was superior to them all regardless.
Any and all tactical advantages another ship has makes no difference whether it's against all classes of Federation ship or just one class with different sizes. The reason being that regardless of the Federation having multiple classes they all utilise the exact same technologies.
Consider what I said above as a "friendly" warning. No infraction will be logged at this time. Just keep your nose clean.
Never understood that rule. Honesty is trolling?
YARN
Fleet Captain
I'm sorry, I can't read this without imagining John Cleese browbeating Michael Palin in some old Monty Python sketch:
"Look Jones, I am warning you that if you keep this up I will have to issue a warning."
"But wasn't that just a warning?"
"Don't get smart with me Jones. Warnings are serious business. Don't make me warn you a second time or you'll definitely get your first warning!"
Oh, and the person who said "for the same reason that every naval ship isn't an aircraft carrier" FTW.
One of the weapons designed to counteract large capital ships like cruisers and battleships was the torpedo boat. Relatively cheap to build, they possessed the ability to cripple and sink the much larger and better armed ships.
More size and weapons isn't always the correct answer.
And yet a small collection of "lesser" ships beat the Scimitar.
Is this really even an issue? How can anybody deny the merits of specialization in any situation? Now, if we were complaining about the apparent lack of variation in the Klingon or Romulan fleets like Magellan and Arpy have mentioned, then I could see a legitimate gripe. But this is... odd.
In any event, what's really important about having these multiple ship classes for Starfleet is the story purposes they serve. Star Trek III is a great example of this. Need a clearly inferior starship to contrast our beloved Enterprise? USS Grissom! Need a clearly superior and intimidating foil to make our heroes the underdogs? USS Excelsior! It allows us to identify with the Enterprise on a level that we really wouldn't if every ship in the fleet looked and performed the same way.
There's also the issue of clarity... you really don't want viewers confused as to which ship has all the squishy little people inside of it that they are supposed to care about.
In any event, what's really important about having these multiple ship classes for Starfleet is the story purposes they serve. Star Trek III is a great example of this. Need a clearly inferior starship to contrast our beloved Enterprise? USS Grissom! Need a clearly superior and intimidating foil to make our heroes the underdogs? USS Excelsior! It allows us to identify with the Enterprise on a level that we really wouldn't if every ship in the fleet looked and performed the same way.
There's also the issue of clarity... you really don't want viewers confused as to which ship has all the squishy little people inside of it that they are supposed to care about.
Let me ask a question about scaling and see if the point come across.
If you want to make a passenger jet that carriers 5,000 people, do you just take a 747 and make it bigger?
Our how about a cruise ship that carries 500,000 people? Do you just make a bigger QE2?
You want a fighter that carriers 10 times the weapons of a F16, do you make the f16 10 times bigger?
Sorry I had to go overboard, but it seemed the only way to attempt to get the point across.
The basics of the designs would stay the same, the planes would still have wings and a fuselage, but it would need a hell of a lot more power, changes to the wings to hold the weapons or engines. The boat would still have a bow and stern, but it too would need more changes to help it stay afloat.
In the fictional world of Start Trek, certain designs work better than others as far as warp fields go. The Intrepid's sleeker design along with its movable nacelles allowed it to hit higher speeds, it was also very nimble at impulse. The larger Galaxy allowed it to do its missions AND be a capable combat ship And be fast. And Intrepid could fly circles around it at impulse.
If you want to make a passenger jet that carriers 5,000 people, do you just take a 747 and make it bigger?
Our how about a cruise ship that carries 500,000 people? Do you just make a bigger QE2?
You want a fighter that carriers 10 times the weapons of a F16, do you make the f16 10 times bigger?
Sorry I had to go overboard, but it seemed the only way to attempt to get the point across.
The basics of the designs would stay the same, the planes would still have wings and a fuselage, but it would need a hell of a lot more power, changes to the wings to hold the weapons or engines. The boat would still have a bow and stern, but it too would need more changes to help it stay afloat.
In the fictional world of Start Trek, certain designs work better than others as far as warp fields go. The Intrepid's sleeker design along with its movable nacelles allowed it to hit higher speeds, it was also very nimble at impulse. The larger Galaxy allowed it to do its missions AND be a capable combat ship And be fast. And Intrepid could fly circles around it at impulse.
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The graphic example we got was actually a bit more frightening than that: apparently, you make a small starship by taking a large one and scaling it down. So a general aviation plane for two people should look like a ten-meter-long 747...!
Incidentally, the nice pie-wedge design used in that example might in fact make for a scaleable starship. You don't make it smaller overall, you remove unnecessary wedges to get a leaner and meaner design...
Timo Saloniemi
Incidentally, the nice pie-wedge design used in that example might in fact make for a scaleable starship. You don't make it smaller overall, you remove unnecessary wedges to get a leaner and meaner design...
Timo Saloniemi
There will always be design flaws. It is physically and intellectually impossible to know everything and design for every contingency and to not make mistakes. It happens; it's a part of life. Saying that there won't be design flaws is like saying you're only partly pregnant; it's meaningless.
The Defiant was initially severely over-powered for its size, and that caused problems. The Galaxy-class managed to get its ass handed to it numerous times when it should have been able to survive just within its first ten years of production. Voyager's bio-neural gel packs were susceptible to malfunction if you cooked cheese.
There's no gravity, and wind resistance.... They don't need to build it really big...just enough to hold enough the crews and the dilithium reaction thingy. The Defiant-Class ships are just as powerful as a lot of the bigger ships. And I still say they should have some kind of military defense force.
I'm glad you brought those up, saved me having to!
It's not possible to build the 'perfect ship'. Physics just doesn't play ball like that. The Defiant almost tore itself apart when it was launched.
And the only way to guarantee a ship will never be outgunned / out manouvered etc is to build a ship that has 10/10 for every stat.
Speed 10
Strength 10
Firepower 10
..oh wait...I can't do that...if i make it that strong, it'll need too much power, and won't go so fast...
also...if it's too big, it will be less manouverable and a bird of prey will run rings around it.
What Lorna is proposing is nothing short of 'god modding'.
First, it would be a pretty boring story if the tech geeks didn't have various ship classes to geek out on. The writers are aware of this and played into that need. In addition, the reality of the situation is that though a ship might be multi-purposed (take the Nebula class), the time that it takes to prepare ships for specific missions is inefficient.
It is much more efficient to send an outdated Oberth class ship to deliver a load of medical supplies than it is to pull a Galaxy class ship from it's duty to do so.
And, as technology progresses so to does ship design.
Specialization is an important and valid reason to vary the design. Not to mention you would still want to make use of outdated designs instead of simply scrapping them.
It is much more efficient to send an outdated Oberth class ship to deliver a load of medical supplies than it is to pull a Galaxy class ship from it's duty to do so.
And, as technology progresses so to does ship design.
Specialization is an important and valid reason to vary the design. Not to mention you would still want to make use of outdated designs instead of simply scrapping them.
Also, while not a 'reason' to make multiple classes, but a 'benefit' of them, is that I would imagine theres some kind of competition between captains as to who gets to captain what.
Picard gets to gloat to other captains 'cos he got the Galaxy class!
If they were all the same, then half the captains would stop trying to 'outdo' each other as theres no incentive to outshine the others.
By having lots of ships, some more prestigious than others, makes captains perform better as they want to get the good ships.
Though, I may be applying 21st century mentality to 24th century people here
Picard gets to gloat to other captains 'cos he got the Galaxy class!
If they were all the same, then half the captains would stop trying to 'outdo' each other as theres no incentive to outshine the others.
By having lots of ships, some more prestigious than others, makes captains perform better as they want to get the good ships.
Though, I may be applying 21st century mentality to 24th century people here
No, that mentality existed in the 24th century. Pulaski was bucking to get a position on the Enterprise. Commander Shelby was bucking for the same...
Lorna
Lieutenant Commander
Yes. All planes have the same design, the inside of the plane however is designed differently for the purpose the plane is to serve.
Now do YOU understand the point?
This is an Airbus.
This is a 747.
This is a small passenger plane.
They ALL share the exact same design, the wings are in the same place, the fins are in the same place, the engines are on the wings in the same place. The cockpit is in the same place and the shape is the same.
Federation ships are all completely different, the nacelles are in different places, the saucers are shaped differently, the secondary hulls are shaped and located differently.
Do you understand the point I am making?
The Federation only needs one type of design, they can then build that design into different sizes and design the insides of the ship to suit whatever mission the ship is to serve.
Planes can be scaled up and down and they are. They generally all look the same regardless of size and make and model, the inside of the planes are what's wholly different.
The Federation Akira class does not need to look the way it does, it serves no purpose. Instead of the Akira design they could have simply built a bigger Nova class. The shape and design is irrelevant. So long as the new sized Nova had the same weaponry, rooms, technology and crew that the Akira has the new sized Nova could replace the Akira.
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