The Federation's man power advantage

[AirCommodore]

Do you think Starfleet gave some of their ships to allied Federation members? Could there be a Galaxy Class starship out there with Andorian personnel?

I assume there would. I mean some species would be taller and larger and find the seats, doorways and control panels a little smaller and lower than what is comfortable. A very short species would find the seats too large and difficult to reach all the panels and controls at their station or on the walls. Their ships, even if Starfleet, might have different seats in the work areas and different seats and beds in their quarters, with all the control interfaces on every deck at different heights and shapes to accommodate them.

Remember Worfs standing station on the ENT-D? How would a species averaging 3 or 4ft tall operate that? And one averaging 8ft tall would find it too low. Even the seated stations require you to reach in order to operate some controls. That would be a little too far to reach with very short arms. Just picture 10 people from a Yoda-sized species sitting at all the stations on the bridge. See a problem?

That's aside from the slight differences in atmosphere, temperature and gravity that each species evolved in and would prefer to work in. The more you think about it, the more unlikely it seems that every species could really serve equally on every ship together.

 

[drt]

I also seem to recall some fanon or novelverse reasoning that postulated that a lot of species tended to be more homeworld bound and not really fond of space-travel as to why humans were so dominant in Starfleet.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

As a side note, the size of some of the orbital facilities we're shown throughout on-screen Trek suggests that these things require personnel numbers that vastly outstrip that of the starship fleet. For every "Spacedock" type starbase, you're probably talking tens of thousands of personnel. Since there's something like a high 3 figures of starbases, with some being based planet side, along with research stations and other non-ship assets, Starfleet's manpower requirements are likely such that the support infrastructure of maintaining things like starbases eats up the vast majority of its personnel needs.

For the relative manpower of the various stellar powers, the Klingons, at least, don't seem to trust anyone but Klingons to crew their own ships. Given the semi-feudal structure of their government, the "Klingon Empire" is probably as fragmented as any society of that sort can be, with the individual houses controlling different client/subject species and worlds in a way that spreads out their industrial base and prevents it from being consolidated. In many ways it's probably much like a space Ottoman Empire, while the Romulans and Federation are likely closer to a modern nation-state.

 

[bbjeg]

... For the relative manpower of the various stellar powers, the Klingons, at least, don't seem to trust anyone but Klingons to crew their own ships...

That can't be true. We've seen a few humans (and trill) invited into Klingon houses and operate Klingon ships. Martok in particular is known for inviting humans (even Quark) on his ship. Even as far back as TNG's A Matter Of Honor, Klingons welcomed the exchange and respected Riker's command.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

As a general rule, all of the Klingon ship crews we've seen, aside from the "guest" characters, are crewed entirely by Klingons. There are no other subject species on board the ships presented.

 

[USS KG5]

I wonder how any of the Federation's Alpha Quadrant rivals are threats, if the Federation has such a huge man power advantage over them.

DS9 isn't explicit, but provides a lot of evidence towards the idea that the Federation is the main power in the alpha quadrant, and an alliance of two or more of the others would be required to defeat them.

Overall, of the races we see most, I'd say the Cardassians are the weakest, then the Romulans, then Klingons, then Federation.

But all of those powers would be capable of causing tremendous damage to the Feds over the duration of a short conflict, so while a total war might only end one way, it is still best avoided.

Real world example, in WW2 Japan never realistically stood even an earthly chance of defeating the USA, but if war had been avoided it would have saved millions of lives.

 

[Shik]

For the relative manpower of the various stellar powers, the Klingons, at least, don't seem to trust anyone but Klingons to crew their own ships. Given the semi-feudal structure of their government, the "Klingon Empire" is probably as fragmented as any society of that sort can be, with the individual houses controlling different client/subject species and worlds in a way that spreads out their industrial base and prevents it from being consolidated. In many ways it's probably much like a space Ottoman Empire, while the Romulans and Federation are likely closer to a modern nation-state.

This is the best theory of the internal mechanics of the Empire that I have ever seen & I am totally stealing it for my project. Whenever the site is built I'll duly credit you.

 

[T'Girl]

Real world example, in WW2 Japan never realistically stood even an earthly chance of defeating the USA ...

I don't think it was ever a plan of the Japanese to defeat America, at least not at the beginning of the war. The initial plan was to knock America down so as that Japan could achieve it preplanned goals in the Western Pacific.

Yamamoto wanted the attack on Hawaii to be more than just two waves, basically he planned for a all day series of attack, the timid commander choosen (Nagumo) disengaged after only the two attacks.

If (hypothedically) the carriers had been in port, and the oil storage tank were destroyed, combined with a subsequent (successful) attack on the Panama Canal, America might have had to concede the Western Pacific to Japan through lack of options.

There's also the possible result if Midway had gone terribly wrong for America, which could have meant ultimately losing Hawaii some time late in 1942 or early in 1943.

It was never a case of Japan was doomed from the start.

 

[USS KG5]

I don't think it was ever a plan of the Japanese to defeat America, at least not at the beginning of the war. The initial plan was to knock America down so as that Japan could achieve it preplanned goals in the Western Pacific.

Pretty silly in and of itself. You are right the Japanese harboured no desire to invade the Usa, nor did they have the logistical means to do so, but even if they had done much better in 1942, the US would have come back hard and done just as much damage.

Remember that for most of the war the pacific was the second priority to Europe, Japan was categorically defeated while the pacific commanders were fighting one of two wars. The resources available were staggering.

Yamamoto wanted the attack on Hawaii to be more than just two waves, basically he planned for a all day series of attack, the timid commander choosen (Nagumo) disengaged after only the two attacks.

Very convenient for the USA but a tactical mistake that had limited impact, the outcome of the conflict was unaffected. Yamamoto also stayed home when he could have been with the fleet, his post war reputation as a genius among fools is a bit flattering, Midway was basically his plan.

If (hypothedically) the carriers had been in port, and the oil storage tank were destroyed, combined with a subsequent (successful) attack on the Panama Canal, America might have had to concede the Western Pacific to Japan through lack of options.

No, it would have lengthened the war, delayed an Amercan response until the navy got the Essex class carriers, nothing more.

There's also the possible result if Midway had gone terribly wrong for America, which could have meant ultimately losing Hawaii some time late in 1942 or early in 1943.

Staggeringly unlikely, even if all three US carriers had been sunk the Japanese never had the forces to take on the massive Us presence in Hawaii. The six fleet carriers that attacked Pearl originally would have to face massive land based air and overcome significant ground forces. The weak disorganised enemy they beat in the Philippines continuing for years just isnt credible.

It was never a case of Japan was doomed from the start.

Yes, the consensus among historians, is that it was.

Japan was hopelessly deluded in expecting a positive outcome from taking on the USA. Their theory would have stood up to fighting the weakened European powers, but their economic output was about 10% of the USA`s!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I get the impression in TNG S3 that the Romulans feel they have a shot against the Federation if the Klingons weren't an issue.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I get the impression in TNG S3 that the Romulans feel they have a shot against the Federation if the Klingons weren't an issue.

Romulans and Klingons may be at a numerical disadvantage against the Federation (though I still don't believe this is very well proven), but their technology gives them a number of serious technological advantages. Using proper cloaking tactics, a full scale Romulan or Klingon advantage could probably destroy a highly disproportionate number of Federation defenses.

It wouldn't necessarily help all that much for trying to conquer the Federation, but if the objective is more to neutralize it, I could certainly see either power as standing a reasonable chance at success (as long as they don't have to worry about any other empires taking advantage of the opportunity, which is the unrealistic part).

 

[bbjeg]

^Plus, the Klingons have that star eruption technology (from DS9's Shadows And Symbols, not from Generations). A single cloaked ship could destroy earth.

 

[Nightdiamond]

This is what I get from looking at the Klingons.They probably have a humongous military.

In 4 separate scenarios they nearly conquer the Federation or the other Alpha quadrant powers.

In Yesterdays Enterprise they destroyed half of Starfleet and were about to force the Federation to surrender.

In AGT in a possible future scenario, they conquered the Romulan Empire.

In the alternate universe they brought down the Terran empire.

In the 'regular' universe, they invaded Cardassia and came within an inch of conquering it, if the Federation hadn't interfered.

They had enough ships to fight through the Cardassia/Federation conflict, then later go to war with the Dominion, although by then they were in worn out shape.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

I get the impression in TNG S3 that the Romulans feel they have a shot against the Federation if the Klingons weren't an issue.

Romulans and Klingons may be at a numerical disadvantage against the Federation (though I still don't believe this is very well proven), but their technology gives them a number of serious technological advantages. Using proper cloaking tactics, a full scale Romulan or Klingon advantage could probably destroy a highly disproportionate number of Federation defenses.

It wouldn't necessarily help all that much for trying to conquer the Federation, but if the objective is more to neutralize it, I could certainly see either power as standing a reasonable chance at success (as long as they don't have to worry about any other empires taking advantage of the opportunity, which is the unrealistic part).

Actually, by proper use of cloaking technology, either the klingons or the romulans could depopulate the federation in days and then conquer the remains.
Send a cloaked ship to every densely inhabited federation planet; once there, have it launch nuclear armaggedon on that world.
Or even simpler, launch a few cloaked warheads to every densely inhabited federation planet.
etc, etc.

Except - neither the klingons or the romulans will do that - because there would be no show if they would do it.
Instead, the writers have them resort to over-convoluted dr. Evil plans - for example, last we saw the romulans, they were killing their entire senate for the chance to strike at Earth with some exotic death ray.