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It just makes sense that the Federation would have it's own secretive covert operations division. As we all know the Cardissians have the Obsidian Order and the Romulans the Tal-Shair,and I am also sure the the Dominion has it's own internal security division. Would the Federation be so nieve that they would not see the need for covert operations, I think not. I kind of liked Slone, he was faithful to the end...
There is a line between "Starfleet Intelligence" and "Section 31" - both canonical organisations.
The point of Section 31 is they wish to safeguard the Federation at any cost, something that most of the Federation does not believe in. The general belief is there is not much point fighting for freedom if you become what you despise while doing it.
An intelligence organisation can operate within legal rules and boundaries, most real-world ones do most of the time.
In one ST VOY novel, Libbie Harry Kim's love interest is just that: someone at the bottom of the ladder in Section 31. A lot of assignments may be watching a certain place from 12:05PM to 12:20 PM, reporting how many people came and went, noting anyone familiar, etc. It would be more reminiscent of low level PI work than MI/C&D work.
I'd have to agree with other posters, Torchwood would be Section 31. The Federation is large and powerful. The ST series implies that is because of superior ideals. Only DS9 implied that the Feds had some other muscle to maintain the Fed entity. After all superior ideals won't protect the UFP from the Romulans, an unpredictable Klingon Empire, the Tholians, the Borg, the Cardassians, and the Dominion.
But the big difference would be that Torchwood doesn't seem to be particular secret - in the very first episode, an old lady on the street knows who they are.
It just makes sense that the Federation would have it's own secretive covert operations division. As we all know the Cardissians have the Obsidian Order and the Romulans the Tal-Shair,and I am also sure the the Dominion has it's own internal security division. Would the Federation be so nieve that they would not see the need for covert operations, I think not. I kind of liked Slone, he was faithful to the end...
There is a line between "Starfleet Intelligence" and "Section 31" - both canonical organisations.
The point of Section 31 is they wish to safeguard the Federation at any cost, something that most of the Federation does not believe in. The general belief is there is not much point fighting for freedom if you become what you despise while doing it.
An intelligence organisation can operate within legal rules and boundaries, most real-world ones do most of the time.
The operative word is MOST of the time in your last sentence. Most of the denizens of the Federation probably would not want to become like others in the Alpha Quadrant. However, I don't think they would go to the other extreme and be like the Halkans in "Mirror, Mirror"; choosing literal death over preservation. As in today's world, good people would disagree on what means are acceptable to achieving a desired end in the ST Federation.
It just makes sense that the Federation would have it's own secretive covert operations division. As we all know the Cardissians have the Obsidian Order and the Romulans the Tal-Shair,and I am also sure the the Dominion has it's own internal security division. Would the Federation be so nieve that they would not see the need for covert operations, I think not. I kind of liked Slone, he was faithful to the end...
There's Starfleet Intelligence. The difference between that and Section 31 is that it answers to Starfleet, it works for the interest of Starfleet, and Starfleet knows what it's doing.
Section 31 answers to no one and cares primarily about the good of the Federation as a whole. It spies on and murders members of starfleet, the government, or the civilian population if it deems them threats.
Section 31 answers to no one and cares primarily about the good of the Federation as a whole. It spies on and murders members of starfleet, the government, or the civilian population if it deems them threats.
That's a misconception. Section 31 has never been said to have murdered members of Starfleet, the government, or the civilian population. The closest has been a claim that once you're in Section 31, you're in for life.
Section 31, however, was discovered being behind secret biological warfare against the Founders during the Dominion War. They also manipulated members of other governments into unwittingly acting on behalf of the Federation. It was those who individuals that may have been eliminated--and not by Section 31, but by their own governments.
As far as Section 31 not answering to anyone, that's questionable. It was established out of the original Starfleet charter, and Starfleet Command has continually derailed all official inquiries and investigations into Section 31. At the very least, Starfleet protects Section 31 and allows it to carry out its covert operations without outside interference.
But the big difference would be that Torchwood doesn't seem to be particular secret - in the very first episode, an old lady on the street knows who they are.
Section 31 answers to no one and cares primarily about the good of the Federation as a whole. It spies on and murders members of starfleet, the government, or the civilian population if it deems them threats.
Section 31 answers to no one and cares primarily about the good of the Federation as a whole. It spies on and murders members of starfleet, the government, or the civilian population if it deems them threats.
But notice the part where Bashir said "If I had turned out to be a Dominion agent." At the time, there was said to be a number of Founders disguised as Humans running loose in the Federation and within Starfleet. Section 31 was going after shapeshifters.
But notice the part where Bashir said "If I had turned out to be a Dominion agent." At the time, there was said to be a number of Founders disguised as Humans running loose in the Federation and within Starfleet. Section 31 was going after shapeshifters.
That doesn't make S31 the good guys. Just because they're going after shapeshifters doesn't mean they have to trample all over the democratic process in so doing. Would you advocate having every Federation citizen be forced to submit to random blood screening, for example?
After all, we've all seen that real shapeshifters can fool the sensors (i.e. fake a negative reading on a blood test), and also make it look like someone is a shapeshifter who really is not (didn't one of them try to make Bashir look like one? "The Adversary", I think it was)? So there's another reason we shouldn't buy into the rampant paranoia that S31 would have us believe.
The bottom line is this: What if Section 31 makes a mistake?
But notice the part where Bashir said "If I had turned out to be a Dominion agent." At the time, there was said to be a number of Founders disguised as Humans running loose in the Federation and within Starfleet. Section 31 was going after shapeshifters.
But it also doesn't make them people going out and murdering Federation citizens who become "troublesome" either. Section 31 is clearly a shadow organization that does things that no Starfleet officer in good standing would ever do, but I believe neither the Federation Council nor the Starfleet Admiralty would allow Section 31 to take things to the extremes of murdering innocent Federation citizens. In this instance, Section 31's reputation is worse than the reality. At worse, Section 31 can be considered unethical and ruthless, but there's no evidence that they are a threat to the Federation.
Just because they're going after shapeshifters doesn't mean they have to trample all over the democratic process in so doing. Would you advocate having every Federation citizen be forced to submit to random blood screening, for example?
And people have gone to great lengths to condemn real world governments for *honest* mistakes they commit. So why does Section 31 get let off the hook so easily in that regard?
The simple fact is, Section 31's very *existence* - as a shadow organization, answerable to ABSOLUTELY NO ONE but themselves - is, by definition, poison to the concepts of freedom and democracy. Even if they have been absolutely lucky enough to never make a mistake, never 'whack' someone who wasn't really guilty, that doesn't make it RIGHT. It doesn't make it a system I would want to live under.
Section 31 claims that they deal with threats to the Federation. Well, who determines just what IS a threat? Think about it.
Let's say that, for example, there were antiwar protestors during the conflict with the Dominion. (I'm sure there were. Section 31 or not, the Federation still is a democracy.) What if S31 decided that *they* were a threat and moved to eliminate them?
That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.
Just a nitpick: There's no particular onscreen sign of Section 31 advocating imperialism and conquest--just doing whatever it takes to protect what's already there. They wanted to commit genocide against the Founders, for example, which is bad enough, but nothing was said of then going on to take over the remaining Dominion subjects.
That might happen eventually, but it would make them less interesting to be a bunch of muahaha baddies. I like the way DS9 and ENT depicted them, as ruthless but basically committed to Federation ideals. They were simply cynical or realistic enough to believe that you couldn't protect the Federation while always playing nice.
And their genocide attempt against the Founders did work. Why else did the Female Founder surrender, if not because of her weakened state, which allowed Odo to persuade her, something he had shown no ability to do before when they linked?
And people have gone to great lengths to condemn real world governments for *honest* mistakes they commit. So why does Section 31 get let off the hook so easily in that regard?
You mean in the story, or by people in this thread?
In the story - Section 31 hasn't been depicted enough. I could envision a storyline where something blows up in their face.
In this thread (and elsewhere) - because the internet is anonymous and people's true opinions come out. In real life, everyone is politically correct and mealy-mouthed, and they lie. A lot. And after all, it's easy to bitch about Bush and Cheney (that's what you're really talking about, right?), knowing that their ruthlessness will protect you even if you bitch about them. You get to be morally superior and get the benefit of morally bankrupt people.
Plus, much of the motive for attacks against the Bush Administration is political. Put those same people in power and they'll turn around and do much of the same things.
The simple fact is, Section 31's very *existence* - as a shadow organization, answerable to ABSOLUTELY NO ONE but themselves - is, by definition, poison to the concepts of freedom and democracy.
In America's history, many undemocratic things have happened, particularly in emergencies/wartime. Hasn't destroyed our democracy yet. Democracy is more resiliant than you imagine...
The number of people engaging in apologia for a neo-imperialist, anti-democratic criminal conspiracy is a bit disheartening.
First off, let's get one thing straight: According to Sloan in "Inquisition," Section 31 "was part of the original Starfleet Charter," which implies the existence of multiple Starfleet Charters. Sure enough, ENT confirms that there were multiple Starfleet Charters -- one for the United Earth Starfleet (UESF) and one for the Federation Starfleet (FSF).
ENT's "Divergence" established that Section 31 justifies its existence by pointing to Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter. This section, however, at no point is described as establishing a permanent organization with the authority to act without orders or accountability to anyone else with carte blanche to do whatever it wants. "Diverence" describes it simply as saying that allowing "certain rules of conduct to be 'bent' during times of extraordinary threat" -- that's VERY VERY different than establishing a permanent organization allowed to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants.
Secondly, citing the UESF Charter to justify their existence is legal nonsense. The UESF doesn't even exist anymore. It was replaced by the FSF. Citing the UESF Charter to justify their existence would be akin to a conspiracy of US Naval officers justifying their organization by citing a provision in the Charter of the Pennsylvania State Navy.
Let's also make something else very clear: Sloan establishes, very firmly, in "Inquisition" that Section 31 answers to nobody, takes orders from nobody, and doesn't want anyone to know that it exists. He is, in fact, surprised when Bashir suggests that that might be a bad thing.
SLOAN
We don't submit reports or ask for
approval for specific operations,
if that's what you mean. We're an
autonomous department.
BASHIR
Authorized by whom?
DEEP SPACE NINE: "Inquisition" - REV. 1/29/98 - ACT FIVE 51B.
41A CONTINUED: (4)
Sloan smiles, maintaining control of the situation.
SLOAN
Section Thirty-one was part of the
original Starfleet charter.
BASHIR
That was two hundred years ago.
Are you telling me you've been
operating on your own ever since?
Without specific orders?
Accountable to nobody, but
yourselves?
SLOAN
You make it sound so... ominous.
BASHIR
Isn't it? If what you say is
true, you function as judge, jury
and executioner. I'd say that's
too much power for anyone.
For those of you following, this means that Section 31's very existence, even if all they did was sit around and play bingo, violates a fundamental principle of liberal democracy: The rule of law.
So. We have an organization that considers itself above the law, conceals its existence from the civilian government, and justifies its existence by citing an arcane and inapplicable law from the dissolved military of a predecessor state.
As if that's not bad enough, what are the activities we've seen Section 31 commit?
Well, let's see.
From ENT's "Affliction" and "Divergence"
- Conspiring with a hostile foreign power to undermine United Earth's planetary defenses in order to abduct a citizen of an allied world.
- Assault upon a United Earth Starfleet officer.
- Abduction of a citizen of an allied world.
- Obstruction of justice by interfering with an investigation into said abduction.
Real Liberal Democrats, there.
What do we see them doing in "Inquisition?"
- Abduction of a Federation Starfleet officer
- Unlawful, unconstitutional imprisonment of a Federation citizen and Starfleet officer
- Unlawful interrogation of a Starfleet officer
- Use of unlawful interrogation tactics (eg sleep deprivation)
What does Thirty-One threaten to do if Bashir had been a shapeshifter or traitor? They imply that they would have engaged in summary execution -- a violation of the Federation Constitution (which is established in TNG's "The Drumhead" to require a trial with various Guarantees of civil rights such as the Seventh Guarantee, against self-incrimination, akin to the US Constitution's Fifth Amendment) and the Starfleet Code of Justice, which would require a court-martial. And also a violation of Federation laws against capital punishment, established in TOS's "The Menagerie."
They next appear in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," wherein we discover that the investigation into the existence of Section 31 that Sisko requests has been stonewalled. Add another count of obstruction of justice.
Later, of course, we discover that Section 31 is responsible for framing an innocent Romulan for treason to the Federation, leading to her imprisonment and torture by the Romulan Tal Shiar -- all in the name of putting the Chairman of the Tal Shiar on the Continuing Committee because he is a supposed mole. This is a direct violation of the Federation Charter's prohibition against interference in the internal affairs of foreign states, established in that same episode, to say nothing of it being complicit in what would under Federation law be the violation of the rights of a sentient being.
And then, of course, in the Final Chapter arc, we discover that Section 31 is responsible for engaging in an act of pre-emptive warfare and attempted genocide, clear violations of Federation law. On top of that, their genocide attempt nearly cost the Federation millions more lives -- had the Female Shapeshifter not been bitter because of her species' impending extinction, she would not have been prepared to issue the order to force the Federation Alliance to fight for every square inch of Cardassia once the Allied fleet cornered the Dominion fleet in orbit of Cardassia Prime; she almost certainly would have just surrendered and negotiated the return of Dominion ships and forces to the Gamma Quadrant. On top of that, it was her impending extinction that also prompted her to order the extermination of the Cardassian species at a time when her resources would have been better spent defending Dominion territory in the AQ. Her impending extinction prompted irrational behavior that cost the lives of over 800 million Cardassian civilians and nearly cost the lives of untold numbers of Federation and allied troops who would have been forced to fight in lieu of a Dominion surrender. Only Odo's Federation-inspired mercy convinced her to stand down.
And on top of that, let's not forget that "Extreme Measures" established that Section 31 had an agent in former Federation President Jaresh-Inyo's Cabinet -- in other words, they were infiltrating the civilian government. That's the sort of thing that coups are built from.
And, indeed, if we broaden our horizons to include the novels, what do we discover?
In 2269, Section 31 issued fraudulent orders to Captain Kirk and the Enterprise to steal the Romulan cloaking device in "The Enterprise Incident," and used this to conduct research into the Omega Particle, leading to the Lantaru Sector disaster established in VOY's "The Omega Directive."
In 2375, after the re-establishment of contact with Voyager, Section 31 ordered one of their operatives aboard that ship to murder Seven of Nine, a Federation citizen.
In 2379, in reaction to criminal behavior on the part of Federation President Min Zife that embroils the Federation in an unjust war and occupation, Section 31 decides to intervene. They contact Starfleet Admiral William Ross and pressure him to pressure other Starfleet officers to secretly force Zife out of office at gunpoint. Then, without the knowledge of the Starfleet officers, after Zife has resigned, they assassinate Zife, his chief of staff, and the Federation Secretary of Military Intelligence.
Later, when Zife's successor, President Nanietta Bacco, uncovers evidence of Zife's assassination, Ross muses that he has to keep Bacco from knowing that Section 31 assassinated Zife and let her think that he did it, because if she knew of Section 31's involvement, they would assassinate her, too.
Let's face it. Section 31 is comprised of people who operate outside of the law, without accountability to the Federation government. They've committed numerous crimes and rights violations. They're a criminal organization with zero political legitimacy. They need to be abolished and brought to justice. If something like Section 31 existed in the United States, its leaders would need to be hauled in irons before the Congress and the President for questioning before being sentenced to spend their lives in prison.
Didn't the Starfleet admirals at the table in A Time To Heal know full well that Section 31 intended to assassinate Zife, Azernal, and Quafina?
And as I said, I suspect that S31 not only had a mole inside Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet, but that they placed that mole there with the intent on assassinating him as well. That is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect them to do. Even if it was not suggested on the show itself.
Not exactly. If you'll recall, Admirals Nechayev, Nakamura, Paris, Jellico, and Ross, and Captain Picard and Ambassador Lagan engaged in a conspiracy to confront President Zife, Chief of Staff Azernal, and Secretary Quafina with evidence of their criminal actions with regards to Tezwa and to force the three to resign. They then agreed that Zife and his men would be put into protective custody and given a false identity, to be sent into anonymous retirement.
Section 31, on the other hand, was much more vengeful, and they forced Ross to let them assassinate Zife and co. afterwords. The admirals who actually physically confronted Zife and Co. were Ross, Nakamura, and Nechayev, and Azernal's internal monologue indicates that they recognized the Section 31 uniforms when its agents entered the Monet Room and realized then that Thirty-One intended to assassinate Zife. "The Bolian chief executive nodded. Judging from the looks on everyone else's faces, Zife was the only person in the group who didn't know who the officers in black really were, or that after his resignation speech no one would see him, Azernal, or Quafina ever again." Ross describes being forced to go along with it in his internal monologue in "Articles of the Federation." We can therefore infer that Nakamura and Nechayev were taken by surprise by Section 31's entry but immediately realized what would happen to Zife and Co.
And as I said, I suspect that S31 not only had a mole inside Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet, but that they placed that mole there with the intent on assassinating him as well. That is exactly the kind of thing I'd expect them to do. Even if it was not suggested on the show itself.
It's possible. There's no reference to Jaresh-Inyo dying in the series, but he dies of natural causes after retiring in Articles; it's entirely possible that Thirty-One decided to place one of their agents as a Federation Secretary in order to have the option of assassinating the president if they so chose.
And people have gone to great lengths to condemn real world governments for *honest* mistakes they commit. So why does Section 31 get let off the hook so easily in that regard?
Who said anything about letting Section 31 get off the hook? It certainly wasn't in DS9. Once it was revealed that Section 31 was willing to commit genocide to end the Dominion War, Doctor Bashir essentially launched a personal campaign to end Section 31 for crossing the line.
The simple fact is, Section 31's very *existence* - as a shadow organization, answerable to ABSOLUTELY NO ONE but themselves - is, by definition, poison to the concepts of freedom and democracy.
And it could be that freedom and democracy might not exist without a shadow organization to defend against other shadow organizations. Section 31 could very well be a response against other foreign agencies that operate in secret to undermine the Federation.
No one is saying that Section 31 is proper or that its methods are just, but it is likely a necessary evil to protect the Federation in secret wars where espionage and lies are the name of the game. The Romulans have the Tal'Shiar, the Cardassians the Obsidian Order, and lord knows what the Klingons might have, but the Federation isn't supposed to have anything to combat that? Starfleet can only do so much and still maintain its image as good guys.
The biggest people have with Section 31 is merely that such an organization simply exists. It shatters the illusion of the Federation as some kind of perfect society where there are no lies and secrets. It's probably for this reason that Section 31 does likely operate mostly in secret, because its existence is not something the Federation is proud of.
Section 31 claims that they deal with threats to the Federation. Well, who determines just what IS a threat? Think about it.
But don't OVERthink it either. Section 31 deals with outside threats to the Federation from foreign powers. Anything else is would likely be considered an internal affair and the province of either Starfleet or the Federation Council.
Let's say that, for example, there were antiwar protestors during the conflict with the Dominion. (I'm sure there were. Section 31 or not, the Federation still is a democracy.) What if S31 decided that *they* were a threat and moved to eliminate them?
I don't think that would ever happen by your very definition. Section 31 was created to do the kind of ugly, morally questionable missions that would offend the sensibilities of so-called enlighted 24th-Century Federation citizens if they became public knowledge, but I do think there's a line that Section 31 won't cross. I also think that the Federation Council and Starfleet Headquarters are well aware of everything Section 31 does and allows it to function by not saying anything about it. Should Section 31 ever get too big for its britches and become a threat to the Federation at large, however, I do think it would be shut down.
It does indeed become a question of "What price for freedom?" Should the Federation rather allow itself to be destroyed by outside forces rather than compromise any of its principles during times of war? Or does Section 31 exist so that the Federation can maintain its principles? It's truly a moral issue, but I'm reminded of what Luther Sloan said to Doctor Bashir:
"The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men with conscience, men who can sleep at night. And you're also the reason that Section 31 exists: to protect men like you from a universe which doesn't share your sense of right and wrong..."
No one is saying that the existence of Section 31 is something to be proud of, but I do think it's unfortunately necessary against other similar organizations from foreign powers employing the same kind of dirty tactics. And even then, I don't think Section 31 goes to the level of murdering Federation citizens...the novels might, but that's another issue.
The alternative would probably be to just let the Federation go belly up and be conquered by its enemies...
