The Federation should have its own Torchwood

[Gotham Central]

I've always figured that the federation MUST have its own version of a Torchwood/Area 51/skunk works type agency SOMEWHERE.

Personally I think that they should have built such a facility on the planet with the Guardian of Forever.

Such a place would hold:

Copies of the Genesis Torpedo
The Phasing cloak,
The plans of the bird of prey that can fire while cloaked
The Wreckage of the Doomsday Machine,
The Antartica wreckage of the Borg sphere
An Iconian gateway
All of Voyager's future technology
The "crossover" transporter technology
Gary Seven's hidden computer and portal
The wearabouts of V'ger, the sentient Enterprise, and the whale song probe.
one of the "conspiracy" aliens
Soran's Solar Probe
The location of the Nexus

Anything else?

 

[FredH]

I wouldn't be utterly shocked if you've just described Section 31; I've also seen similar speculation somewhere about the Department of Temporal Investigations.

 

[Sci]

I've always figured that the federation MUST have its own version of a Torchwood/Area 51/skunk works type agency SOMEWHERE.

Personally I think that they should have built such a facility on the planet with the Guardian of Forever.

Such a place would hold:

Copies of the Genesis Torpedo
The Phasing cloak,
The plans of the bird of prey that can fire while cloaked
The Wreckage of the Doomsday Machine,
The Antartica wreckage of the Borg sphere
An Iconian gateway
All of Voyager's future technology
The "crossover" transporter technology
Gary Seven's hidden computer and portal
The wearabouts of V'ger, the sentient Enterprise, and the whale song probe.
one of the "conspiracy" aliens
Soran's Solar Probe
The location of the Nexus

Anything else?

If by "its own Torchwood Institute," you mean, its own organization dedicated to reverse-engineering advanced alien technology, they do. It's called Starfleet Research and Development.

Interesting side-note: The recent novel Reap the Whirlwind strongly implies that devices from TNG-era Trek such as the dermal regenerator and bone knitter were actually developed from advanced alien technology.

But...

There's another sense of "its own Torchwood." That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

 

[The Wormhole]

Section 31 is basically the "Federation Torchwood." I imagine in his younger days Sloan probably had a thing for dressing in trenchcoats, standing on rooftops making cryptic comments that the 24th century is when everyhting will change.

 

[Sci]

Section 31 is basically the "Federation Torchwood." I imagine in his younger days Sloan probably had a thing for dressing in trenchcoats, standing on rooftops making cryptic comments that the 24th century is when everyhting will change.

Well, to be fair, Section 31 is more akin to the Torchwood Institute as it existed pre-Battle of Canary Wharf than it is to Torchwood under Jack's leadership.

And I doubt that Sloan is searching for the Doctor....

 

[The Wormhole]

And I doubt that Sloan is searching for the Doctor....

He did seem very insistent on recruiting Dr. Bashir. You could say Sloan considers Bashir to be the Right Kind of Doctor...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's another sense of "its own Torchwood." That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

DW's Torchwood isn't like that, is it?

 

[FredH]

That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

Just a nitpick: There's no particular onscreen sign of Section 31 advocating imperialism and conquest--just doing whatever it takes to protect what's already there. They wanted to commit genocide against the Founders, for example, which is bad enough, but nothing was said of then going on to take over the remaining Dominion subjects.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

Just a nitpick: There's no particular onscreen sign of Section 31 advocating imperialism and conquest--just doing whatever it takes to protect what's already there. They wanted to commit genocide against the Founders, for example, which is bad enough, but nothing was said of then going on to take over the remaining Dominion subjects.

Given the downward spiral S31 had been on, I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[Sci]

There's another sense of "its own Torchwood." That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

DW's Torchwood isn't like that, is it?

It was when it was under the control of Yvonne Hartman and her predecessors before the Battle of Canary Wharf in "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday." You might recall Hartman talking about how they always take possession of alien technology and reverse-engineer it for the good of the British empire. Jackie interrupts and goes, "There is no British empire." Hartman's reply? "Not yet." Torchwood was established by Queen Victoria, with no input from Parliament or the government, in 1879 ("Tooth and Claw"). In 1889, it was engaging in abductions and torture of anyone they believed possessed knowledge of the Doctor, and was engaging in summary executions of anyone or anything it deemed a threat to the Empire. It was apparently complicit in the abductions of British citizens who had been victims of mutilation by an alien force in 1953 by local authorities -- all in an attempt to keep the news of such a strange event from leaking in time to disrupt Elizabeth II's coronation ("The Idiot's Lantern"). They tried to keep their existence secret from Prime Minister Harriet Jones during the Sycorax incursion in 2006 ("The Christmas Invasion"). We saw Torchwood abducting and having committed to an institution a British journalist in the TARDISode leading up to "Army of Ghosts." They abducted the Doctor and his companions in that episode in 2007.

After the destruction of Torchwood One in that battle, Captain Jack took it over and re-built it all in a more benevolent pattern to honor the Doctor. But Jack put it himself: "Outside the police, beyond the government." Even Captain Jack's relatively benign Torchwood doesn't answer to the Prime Minister or the Cabinet.

That is, your statement could have been interpreted as referring to an organization that operates autonomously, answers to no one, is above the law, doesn't obey the government, violates the law with impunity, and advocates imperialism and conquest. And, unfortunately, the UFP has that -- Section 31.

Just a nitpick: There's no particular onscreen sign of Section 31 advocating imperialism and conquest--just doing whatever it takes to protect what's already there. They wanted to commit genocide against the Founders, for example, which is bad enough, but nothing was said of then going on to take over the remaining Dominion subjects.

His prattlings with Bashir about how to dominate the post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant certainly imply otherwise.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Another thing to consider is the possibility that not all Section 31 agents are like Luther Sloan, who might have been one of the top dogs of the department and thus required to act in a certain ruthless manner. Other Section 31 operatives--especially those further down the chain of command--may be totally indistinguishable from regular folks in Starfleet, with the only exception that everything they do is classified...they might be less "Cloak & Dagger" and more "Mission: Impossible."

 

[Sci]

Another thing to consider is the possibility that not all Section 31 agents are like Luther Sloan, who might have been one of the top dogs of the department and thus required to act in a certain ruthless manner. Other Section 31 operatives--especially those further down the chain of command--may be totally indistinguishable from regular folks in Starfleet, with the only exception that everything they do is classified...they might be less "Cloak & Dagger" and more "Mission: Impossible."

Sure. It's entirely possible that any number of Section 31 agents aren't aware of the illegal operations it's undertaken. That doesn't mean that Section 31 is not a criminal organization that deliberately holds itself above the law, though.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Another thing to consider is the possibility that not all Section 31 agents are like Luther Sloan, who might have been one of the top dogs of the department and thus required to act in a certain ruthless manner. Other Section 31 operatives--especially those further down the chain of command--may be totally indistinguishable from regular folks in Starfleet, with the only exception that everything they do is classified...they might be less "Cloak & Dagger" and more "Mission: Impossible."

Sure. It's entirely possible that any number of Section 31 agents aren't aware of the illegal operations it's undertaken. That doesn't mean that Section 31 is not a criminal organization that deliberately holds itself above the law, though.

But to be fair, there's no real proof that Section 31 is a "criminal organization" either. It's a top-secret division of Starfleet whose existence the Federation neither confirms nor denies in order for it to do missions of a highly covert nature. It would be no more criminal than any other Black Ops agency, but it is possible that Luther Sloan may have crossed a line or two...

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I wouldn't be utterly shocked if you've just described Section 31; I've also seen similar speculation somewhere about the Department of Temporal Investigations.

Well, Section 31 doesn't have any centralized locations. It would ruin their secrecy a lot. Starfleet does have standard intelligence agencies who could have secret stuff like this (or they could just have normal research and development people who do these things).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But to be fair, there's no real proof that Section 31 is a "criminal organization" either.

We've seen all the proof we require.

It would be no more criminal than any other Black Ops agency

It can be argued that all Black Ops agencies are, by definition, criminal organizations.

 

[2 of 10]

It just makes sense that the Federation would have it's own secretive covert operations division. As we all know the Cardissians have the Obsidian Order and the Romulans the Tal-Shair,and I am also sure the the Dominion has it's own internal security division. Would the Federation be so nieve that they would not see the need for covert operations, I think not. I kind of liked Slone, he was faithful to the end...

 

[Gotham Central]

Section 31 is less Torchwood and more akin to Britian's WWII Special Operations Executive.

In any case none of that is really like Torchwood/Area 51. These are the folks that store and experiment with advanced (and highly classified) technologies. This is the stuff that the Federation would deny even exists. Its a good bet that given the opportunity, this group would love nothing more than to find and lock up ALL of the Bajoran orbs.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It just makes sense that the Federation would have it's own secretive covert operations division. As we all know the Cardissians have the Obsidian Order and the Romulans the Tal-Shair,and I am also sure the the Dominion has it's own internal security division. Would the Federation be so nieve that they would not see the need for covert operations, I think not.

Oh, I think so. Those other organizations you mentioned? They are against everything the Federation stands for. The Obsidian Order, Tal Shiar, etc., exist to maintain fear and terror amongst their citizenry. They are examples of pure dictatorship and oppression. They are incompatible with freedom and democracy.

Section 31 is only slightly less dangerous, as (unlike those orgs) it doesn't exist to punish traitors - real or imagined - or enforce the will of the state. Not yet, anyway...

 

[2 of 10]

^^
I respect your view of S-31, I would hope that that they would not be gestapo in nature, but would serve as a first/last line of defense in the event of some kind of internal action against the Federation...

 

[C.E. Evans]

But to be fair, there's no real proof that Section 31 is a "criminal organization" either.

We've seen all the proof we require.

Not really. We actually have seen hardly anything of Section 31. All we know is that it's a top-secret organization that protects the Federation and that it secretly recruits its members from Starfleet. The biggest beef that certain Starfleet officers had with Section 31 was that it was a secret organization and that it perhaps undermined the idea of the Federation as some perfectly honest society that didn't keep secrets. Otherwise, its tactics often involved undermining potential threats to the Federation simply through counter-intelligence and encouraging bad guys to turn on each other through the feeding of misinformation.

It would be no more criminal than any other Black Ops agency

It can be argued that all Black Ops agencies are, by definition, criminal organizations.

And by that definition, every nation that wants to be a major political power has one--both in the Star Trek Universe and in the real world.