The Federation has no law against genocide?
- Thread starter tafkats
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The dialogue between Sisko and Dax at the end of the episode suggested that the weapon that Sisko used against the civilian Maquis did require authorization for use by Starfleet command.
DAX: Benjamin, I'm curious. Your plan to poison the Maquis planets. You didn't clear it with Starfleet first, did you.
SISKO: I knew I'd forgotten to do something.
DAX: Big gamble.
SISKO: That's what it takes to be a good villain.
DAX: You know, sometimes I like it when the bad guy wins.
If I remember correctly, Sisko answered Dax's question very cavalierly. Sisko's attitude about the incident was remarkably carefree. It came across like a big joke to him.
Sisko essentially acknowledged that he acted recklessly with the lives of all those civilian Maquis. Afterall, he wanted to play the villain and that's how he acted against the Maquis. Sisko's behavior was unbecoming of an officer, at the very least.
As for the balancing of the scales, that was not Sisko's intent. Sisko did what he did to capture Eddington. It was Sisko's personal vendetta against Eddington.
Do we know that no civilian Maquis died or was hurt by the wmd that Sisko unleashed on them? I remember that once the torpedoes impacted the Maquis planet, the poison spread very quickly around the planet. I find it hard to believe that there were no civilian casualties.
Besides, does the ends justify the means? Maybe Sisko should have a talk with Picard, or listen to Picard's speech to Data about ends justifying the means in "Redemption". Also, what kind of precedent was Sisko establishing? Should all future border disputes be decided by each side poisoning the other sides' border planets to make them uninhabitable except for your own species, and then offering to trade?
Since Starfleet didn't do anything, as far as the audience knows, to Sisko, could it be implied that Starfleet command simply looked the other away?
Captains in numerous episodes have violated a Starfleet order, like the prime directive, and apparently didn't suffer any consequence. So could one also argue that Sisko did, at the very least, violate some Starfleet regulation, but his buddies in Starfleet command gave him a pass? Maybe the admirals bought the balancing of the scales reasoning, as well. It wouldn't have been unprecedented.
Sisko gave those colonists enough time to evacuate. If there were any casualties, we would have heard about them.
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To be fair, Sisko gave Eddington a chance to turn himself in before he fired the torpedoes. If he's to blame for firing the weapons, Eddington is just as much to blame for escalating the conflict to a point where Starfleet could no longer turn a blind eye to the Maquis.
The planet changes colors fairly quickly, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of when the planet became toxic.
In any event, I'm certainly not going to attempt to argue that Sisko did the moral thing. Been there, done that, multiple times, and personally I don't really agree with poisoning planets. But I also think there is a tendency to ignore the fact that in a sense Sisko was balancing out Eddington's own act.
And this certainly wouldn't be the first time Starfleet overlooked the means in favor of the ends.
You're right. This wouldn't be the first time.
Sisko gave the Maquis hardly any time to evacuate.
The dialogue on board the Defiant indicated that Sisko didn't give a damn about whether the civilian Maquis had even began to evacuate before Sisko ordered the torpedoes to be fired.
WORF: Set torpedo targets to fifty kilometres above ground level.
CREWWOMAN: Aye, sir.
WORF: Lock. Ready, Captain.
SISKO: Time?
KIRA: One minute left. And still no transport ship activity or any other sign that they're beginning to evacuate.
SISKO: Commander Worf, prepare to fire torpedoes on my mark.
WORF: Detach safeties on torpedoes one and two.
KIRA: Incoming message. It's Eddington.
EDDINGTON: (hologram) What are you really up to, Javert? Do you expect me to believe that a decorated Starfleet officer, the pride of the service, is going to poison an entire planet?
SISKO: That's exactly what I'm going to do.
EDDINGTON: You're bluffing.
SISKO: Am I? Commander, launch torpedoes. Commander, I said launch torpedoes!
WORF: Aye, sir.
The wmd that Sisko used required authorization of use by Starfleet command. Sisko had no authorization to use them. Furthermore, he deliberately targeted a planet with civilians. I find it hard to believe that there were no civilian casualties from Sisko's wmd. And what about the massive ecological damage. Is that a crime?
What Sisko did was unsavory in so many ways.
Sisko's motive in unleashing the wmds was twisted. Sisko endangered (more likely, ended) the lives of many civilians in order to satisfy his obsession with capturing Eddington. Sisko treated the civilians on the planet as though they were worthless pawns in his personal quest to get Eddington.
The Maquis were not an existential threat to the Federation. Why was Sisko fighting the Cardassians' war for them? The Maquis targeted the Cardassians. When the Cardassian-Dominion alliance went about to wipe out the Maquis, did Sisko start shooting wmds at Cardassia in order to balance the scales?
It did appear that Sisko committed war crimes or crimes against humanity.
At the very least, Sisko violated some Starfleet regulation. 
But I suppose violating Starfleet regulations would have been the least of his worries.In the end, I suppose it didn't matter because no one would hold Sisko to account for his actions.
Noted. Agree to disagree.
You're right. This wouldn't be the first time.
Sisko gave the Maquis hardly any time to evacuate.
The dialogue on board the Defiant indicated that Sisko didn't give a damn about whether the civilian Maquis had even began to evacuate before Sisko ordered the torpedoes to be fired.
WORF: Set torpedo targets to fifty kilometres above ground level.
CREWWOMAN: Aye, sir.
WORF: Lock. Ready, Captain.
SISKO: Time?
KIRA: One minute left. And still no transport ship activity or any other sign that they're beginning to evacuate.
SISKO: Commander Worf, prepare to fire torpedoes on my mark.
WORF: Detach safeties on torpedoes one and two.
KIRA: Incoming message. It's Eddington.
EDDINGTON: (hologram) What are you really up to, Javert? Do you expect me to believe that a decorated Starfleet officer, the pride of the service, is going to poison an entire planet?
SISKO: That's exactly what I'm going to do.
EDDINGTON: You're bluffing.
SISKO: Am I? Commander, launch torpedoes. Commander, I said launch torpedoes!
WORF: Aye, sir.
The wmd that Sisko used required authorization of use by Starfleet command. Sisko had no authorization to use them. Furthermore, he deliberately targeted a planet with civilians. I find it hard to believe that there were no civilian casualties from Sisko's wmd. And what about the massive ecological damage. Is that a crime?
What Sisko did was unsavory in so many ways.
Sisko's motive in unleashing the wmds was twisted. Sisko endangered (more likely, ended) the lives of many civilians in order to satisfy his obsession with capturing Eddington. Sisko treated the civilians on the planet as though they were worthless pawns in his personal quest to get Eddington.
The Maquis were not an existential threat to the Federation. Why was Sisko fighting the Cardassians' war for them? The Maquis targeted the Cardassians. When the Cardassian-Dominion alliance went about to wipe out the Maquis, did Sisko start shooting wmds at Cardassia in order to balance the scales?
It did appear that Sisko committed war crimes or crimes against humanity.
In the end, I suppose it didn't matter because no one would hold Sisko to account for his actions.
Noted. Agree to disagree.
Hadn't Sisko earlier ordered a message to be sent warning the Maquis to evacuate within the hour. And the Maquis had attacked a Federation ship the Malinche.
As I suggested earlier, the Maquis, via Eddington, established themselves as a "clear and present danger to Federation security". Evidently they thought Starfleet wasn't willing to flex its muscle with regards to the Maquis, and while it's reasonable enough to argue that the particulars of what Sisko did were dubious, there's no evidence that anyone was actually harmed in the process, and the results speak for themselves.
Now I do feel some sympathy for any Maquis who had an issue with Eddington's hawkish stance, but there was never any evidence presented that the Maquis leadership were doing anything to try to curtail him either.
Now I do feel some sympathy for any Maquis who had an issue with Eddington's hawkish stance, but there was never any evidence presented that the Maquis leadership were doing anything to try to curtail him either.
If Bajor had a population of billions 15 million dead Bajorans in 50 years is rather small. That is approximately 300,000 deaths per year over 50 years. 300,000 too many, of course. But if 300,000 are killed in a year when the Bajoran population is one billion (1,000,000,000) then the Cardassian-caused death rate is 30 per hundred thousand per year. If the Bajoran population was ten billion (1,000,000,000) the Cardassian-caused death rate would be 3 per hundred thousand per year.
The USA has a life expectancy of 78.8 years and a death rate of 729.5 deaths per hundred thousand in 2015. In the USA the firearms death rate and the motor vehicle death rate are both 10.3 per hundred thousand, So if Bajor had a population of only one billion (1,000,000,000) the probability of being killed by Cardassians would be only about 1.45 times as great as the probability that an American would be killed by firearms or motor vehicles.
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Some crimes have universal jurisdiction meaning that any government can try someone for those crimes regardless of the place the crimes occur. Thus if Earth law recognizes Martians and Alpha Centaurians as persons, Earth governments have the legal right and duty to prosecute a Martian for Alpha Centaurian specicide.
It seems like the Federation in Kirk's era did not have any iron clad no exceptions law against genocide:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/23.htm
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/27.htm
Thus it seems like Kirk's Federation did not have an absolute prohibition of genocide.
Later:
and:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/23.htm
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/27.htm
Thus it seems like Kirk's Federation did not have an absolute prohibition of genocide.
You can't arrest a god. I mean you could try but you would end up getting destroyed in the process.
Hypothetical ex. In the future we discover that say Yahweh or Allah are tangible deities any humanist police organization trying to arrest them for their "crimes" would end up getting destroyed. Same with other earth gods.
Or to you a less inflammatory example you can't arrest say a top notch Jedi or Sith from the Star Wars universe, or an upper level Marvel or DC character. Their simply beyond legal consequence as a result of their power.
Picard is simply stating this fact.
Hypothetical ex. In the future we discover that say Yahweh or Allah are tangible deities any humanist police organization trying to arrest them for their "crimes" would end up getting destroyed. Same with other earth gods.
Or to you a less inflammatory example you can't arrest say a top notch Jedi or Sith from the Star Wars universe, or an upper level Marvel or DC character. Their simply beyond legal consequence as a result of their power.
Picard is simply stating this fact.
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Eddington's hawkish stance brought the Maquis closer to true independence that Cal Hudson's milquetoast's dovishness.
In For the Uniform I was genuinely rooting for Eddington, Sisko couldn't accept that a man decided his "uniform" was less than his commission to principle and that by the way Eddington fooled him. Sisko can't think rationally after being defeated he has to get even or win.
As for civilian casualties Sisko probably didn't care one iota. Quite honestly I would not have wanted to have served on board the defiant, he seems like the kind of commander I would find morally repulsive.
In For the Uniform I was genuinely rooting for Eddington, Sisko couldn't accept that a man decided his "uniform" was less than his commission to principle and that by the way Eddington fooled him. Sisko can't think rationally after being defeated he has to get even or win.
As for civilian casualties Sisko probably didn't care one iota. Quite honestly I would not have wanted to have served on board the defiant, he seems like the kind of commander I would find morally repulsive.
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