the Federation brought the Dominion War on itself

[ProtoAvatar]

First - between middle S5 - end S5 the wormhole could have been blockaded by a large Federation armada, weapons platforms, mines, etc, etc.

But that would probably provoke the Dominion into starting the war sooner. Remember, Cardassia joining the Dominion caught the AQ powers completely off-guard. Starfleet was stretched as is, what with the previous Klingon war and Borg attack. Klingons likewise. It took time to reposition the fleets. Their shields still weren't upgraded to fully withstand Dominion weapons.
I see it this way: the second half of season 5 was a race - could the Dominion bring ships through the wormhole faster than Starfleet and the Klingons could ready themselves for full-scale war? By 'Call to Arms' Starfleet saw that it couldn't wait any longer but also finally felt ready enough to provoke the Dominion into war. Only then could they approve a plan such as Sisko's.

The Dominion needed no provocation to start the war.
A blokade around the wormhole, however, would have robbed the Dominion of the capacity to start the war for a few decades. No huge dominion convoys full of supplies coming through the wormhole and jump starting cardassian economy, no resources to build ships en masse.

And about Starfleet being stretched - we saw how effective mines or weapons platforms were - using them to blokade the wormhole would hardly be 'stretched' for anyone who could call himself an important political player.
And yes, fleets too - stopping the Dominion from starting the most bloody war in recent history is worth relocating a few dozen ships from the borders/systems/etc - for anyone who's not an idiot. And if Starfleet didn't have the resources to spare these ships after the recent skirmishes (and they WERE skirmishes - compare them to a true was, as presented), it would be so pathetically weak/undermanned, that klingons/romulans/cardassians/etc, etc would have long ago destroyed the federation - which, of course, did not come to pass.

PS - The Federation/klingons/etc had plenty of time to prepare - since end S2.

 

[neozeks]

The Dominion needed no provocation to start the war.
A blokade around the wormhole, however, would have robbed the Dominion of the capacity to start the war for a few decades. No huge dominion convoys full of supplies coming through the wormhole and jump starting cardassian economy, no resources to build ships en masse.

Well, I was responding specificaly to you talking about the second part of S5. At that point the Dominion already had one huge fleet in the AQ, one which Starfleet probably wasn't yet ready to fight (and I have no doubt that fleet would have attacked at the first sign of the wormhole being blocked).

And about Starfleet being stretched - we saw how effective mines or weapons platforms were - using them to blokade the wormhole would hardly be 'stretched' for anyone who could call himself an important political player.
And yes, fleets too - stopping the Dominion from starting the most bloody war in recent history is worth relocating a few dozen ships from the borders/systems/etc - for anyone who's not an idiot. And if Starfleet didn't have the resources to spare these ships after the recent skirmishes (and they WERE skirmishes - compare them to a true was, as presented), it would be so pathetically weak/undermanned, that klingons/romulans/cardassians/etc, etc would have long ago destroyed the federation - which, of course, did not come to pass.

Well, I wouldn't call a Borg attack a 'skirmish'. The fight in FC was probably only the last part of that battle. Who knows how many ships they lost. And Sisko himself clearly states that Starfleet is spread thin.

PS - The Federation/klingons/etc had plenty of time to prepare - since end S2.

Now with that I agree. However:
1)We did see them prepare. DS9 was heavily armed and a way to close the wormhole was devised.
2)The threat of the Dominion still seemed far away. At several points the characters remarked how the Dominion was giving the wormhole a wide berth. And Starfleet was probably preparing for a direct invasion through the wormhole - the Dominion gaining a foothold in Cardassia without a fight changed everything.
3)Dominion starting conflicts throughout the AQ surely disrupted their preparations (as the Doms no doubt intended).

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Dominion needed no provocation to start the war.
A blokade around the wormhole, however, would have robbed the Dominion of the capacity to start the war for a few decades. No huge dominion convoys full of supplies coming through the wormhole and jump starting cardassian economy, no resources to build ships en masse.

Well, I was responding specificaly to you talking about the second part of S5. At that point the Dominion already had one huge fleet in the AQ, one which Starfleet probably wasn't yet ready to fight (and I have no doubt that fleet would have attacked at the first sign of the wormhole being blocked).

A fleet the Federation/klingons/romulans could defeat with certainty. If that was beyond their ability, then they could never have faced and defeated far larger Dominion fleets during the war.
At that time, the Federation/klingons/romulans were unprepared? The dominion was even more so. And the Federation/klingons/romulans had an overwhelming numerical superiority at that point.

And about Starfleet being stretched - we saw how effective mines or weapons platforms were - using them to blokade the wormhole would hardly be 'stretched' for anyone who could call himself an important political player.
And yes, fleets too - stopping the Dominion from starting the most bloody war in recent history is worth relocating a few dozen ships from the borders/systems/etc - for anyone who's not an idiot. And if Starfleet didn't have the resources to spare these ships after the recent skirmishes (and they WERE skirmishes - compare them to a true was, as presented), it would be so pathetically weak/undermanned, that klingons/romulans/cardassians/etc, etc would have long ago destroyed the federation - which, of course, did not come to pass.

Well, I wouldn't call a Borg attack a 'skirmish'. The fight in FC was probably only the last part of that battle. Who knows how many ships they lost. And Sisko himself clearly states that Starfleet is spread thin.

How many ships did the Federation loose against the borg? 50; 100 at the very most - there was't time to gather a larger fleet in 'First Contact'.
If the Federation can be brought to its knees only by this loss (when fleets of thousands of ships were shown in the war) the Federation would have been conquered long ago by klingons, etc.
Starfllet was 'stretched' - it changes nothing that leaving the only border (the wormhole) with the Dominion unsecured in order to patrol borders with much less aggressive and powerful players is just idiotic.

PS - The Federation/klingons/etc had plenty of time to prepare - since end S2.

Now with that I agree. However:
1)We did see them prepare. DS9 was heavily armed and a way to close the wormhole was devised.
2)The threat of the Dominion still seemed far away. At several points the characters remarked how the Dominion was giving the wormhole a wide berth. And Starfleet was probably preparing for a direct invasion through the wormhole - the Dominion gaining a foothold in Cardassia without a fight changed everything.
3)Dominion starting conflicts throughout the AQ surely disrupted their preparations (as the Doms no doubt intended).

First - the Dominion seeming far away was an naive illusion that anyone who knew something about warp speeds and dominion actions could easily disprove.
Before the dominion moved on cardassia they commited genocide, started wars, etc. meaning the Dominion did not give the wormhhole a 'wide berth'. And all this only escalated onnce the first dominion fleet reached cardassia.
And we all know how fast warp is.

Second - the first - and least costly, in time and resources - step to prepare for the Dominion is to blockade the wormhole. There is simply no reason - other that naive appeasement or plot hole - for Starfleet not to do this.
Arming DS9 - highly ineffectual by comparison. Increasinng shipbuilding - slow going and expansive.

 

[Cheapjack]

Actually, I think, when this Dominion War is over, the JeHadar will be offered jobs in the 24thC equivalent of McDonalds!

God, it's great to be free!!

 

[Gagarin]

I tell you one thing, if Star Trek mirrors the times, and we are going to be in Afghanistan for a generation, there's going to be a hell of a lot of this war and others in ST for a long time.

I think they should do a spin-off series, with a research/science vessel, with reduced, or less obvious armament, maybe backed up by a few defiant type ships on call, boldly going.

That would satisfy the techno-geeks. I'm sure there must be two of us!!

Sounds like Macross 7, etc.

 

[indolover]

First - between middle S5 - end S5 the wormhole could have been blockaded by a large Federation armada, weapons platforms, mines, etc, etc.

But that would probably provoke the Dominion into starting the war sooner. Remember, Cardassia joining the Dominion caught the AQ powers completely off-guard. Starfleet was stretched as is, what with the previous Klingon war and Borg attack. Klingons likewise. It took time to reposition the fleets. Their shields still weren't upgraded to fully withstand Dominion weapons.
I see it this way: the second half of season 5 was a race - could the Dominion bring ships through the wormhole faster than Starfleet and the Klingons could ready themselves for full-scale war? By 'Call to Arms' Starfleet saw that it couldn't wait any longer but also finally felt ready enough to provoke the Dominion into war. Only then could they approve a plan such as Sisko's.

depends what "stretched thin" (as Sisko said) means.

Starfleet had hundreds, even thousands, of vessels. In season 5 of DS9, most of these ships probably were fighting the Klingons, or after the ceasefire patrolling the border of Klingon space, to ward off potential attacks. Some of the fleet probably also needed repairs, following the Klingon war.

As for the Borg attack, well we don't know how many ships were in the fleet at Sector 001. Even still, i doubt Starfleet would have sent literally every ship to fight the cube.. The Federation is big, about 8000 cubic light years. There also must be Starfleet ships exploring beyond Federation space, at any given time. This is probably what Sisko meant when he said Starfleet is "stretched thin". There were too many competing ends, especially when the Dominion came through the wormhole to annex Cardassia.

 

[USS KG5]

I think it is fair to assume Sisk meant "stretched thin" as in not enough AVAILABLE ships as you say rather than not enough ships in the fleet, they had thousands, and probably only lost a few dozen fighting the Borg and very few in the small-scale Klingon conflict.