the Federation brought the Dominion War on itself

[The Librarian]

Frankly, the fact that 5 massive fleets of Dominion Ships were allowed through the Wormhole before Starfleet decided to do anything about it has really irked me.

Imagine if Canada signed an agreement in which they would essentially become a vassal state of China. Do you think the United States would be alright with Chinese tanks, planes, and troops marching through Alaska get to get there? Of course not.

War was very clearly coming. The only problem I have with the Dominion War arc is that the Federation didn't respond sooner and with more intent to win.

-Withers-​

As I said, the Federation's actions were, at times, appeasement. REALLY BAD ideea when you're dealing with someone determined to conquer you.

Middle S5 - Sisko tries to close the wormhole. This fails. Until end S5, the Federation could have closed the wormhole. It didn't, allowing the Dominion to send fleets in the alpha quadrant. Whoever made this decision was an idiot.

Then the Dominion slaughtered all the Federation CITIZENS from the demilitarised zone (only a minority of which were maquis).
The Federation did nothing, betraying its obligation to protact its citizens. You see, the Federation has not only rights regarding its citizens (such as to punish them from breaking its laws regarding...terrorism, let's say) but also obligations (such as protecting its citizens).
If I were part of a Federation member state, I would ask myself why am I still part of the Federation, if the Federation would abandon me to die so easily.
Whoever made this decision betrayed the federation's principles and its citizens. He's a traitor, pure and simple.

First off, they tried to collapse the wormhole at mid-S5 as you said, but because of the sabotage by changeling Bashir they made it stronger, both against their fancy safe-for-Prophets plan and regular weapons. That would be why they didn't collapse it later, as was clearly stated in the episode.

Second, it was never stated that the Federation colonists were slaughtered, just the Maquis. This probably included civilians, yes, but they had all renounced their citizenship and quite frankly were idiots for settling there in the first place. Maybe next time they shouldn't settle in disputed territory. Asking the entire Federation to go to war just because a few hundred people refuse to be relocated or just mind their own business inside the DMZ is silly.

Finally, we have no idea if the Federation was ready for war any earlier than when they started it. In fact, I would say that there's a good chance that they would have been crushed if they were stupid enough to attack that first fleet heading for Cardassia. Not only would they have lost six months of time to build up their own fleets, but chances are that they hadn't finished creating a way to make their shields against Dominion weapons. That's why the entire Klingon fleet got kicked out of Cardassian space. Weyon specifically states in "A Call to Arms" that up until then, Federation shields had never worked against Dominion weapons. It'd be a bit stupid to start a war before your shields work.

I'd also like to point out that the Federation launched the first strike in the war as it was. Blowing up a major shipyard before war's even been declared seems like being proactive to me.

 

[USS KG5]

Nothing leads to believe this.

Oh, not even this...

There's no indication that the first few Gamma quadrant races that came to DS9 were aware of the Dominion so it could suggest the wormhole wasn't in Dominion space.

Well, quite.

There's no way of knowing for sure.

Well it is a TV show, there is no way of knowing half the stuff in this thread.

However the Dominion seem to be unstoppable in the Gamma quadrant. By default any system they choose to be part of the Dominion is theirs. No one seems able to oppose them. I'm not saying in the eyes of others this is legitimate- but all surrounding systems of Dominion space would be perceived as Dominion terrirtory at least by the Founders. Any system that opposes the Dominion is destroyed or left with an incurable disease. They probably regarded the galaxy as theirs just waiting to be conquered.

Yes, but at the time the FEDERATION DOES NOT KNOW THIS, they find it out later.

Now when the Dominion informed Starfleet they wouldn't tolerate any incursions into their side of the wormhole Starfleet should have tried to negotiate and at least respect the Dominion's claim to the wormhole. Instead they send their finest combat capable ship into the Gamma quadrant- hardly a peacekeeping mission.

Nor is it a warmongering one.

So the Feds brought the war on themselves.

You really think you can stick QED on the end of your post there? Must try harder!

 

[Vanyel]

Why NOT send people? The Dominion committed a conscious act of war attacking the Odyssey. It was NOT a breakdown of diplomacy.

And sending one of the most powerful class of Starfleet ships into what Dominion held space, was not an act of war? An armed rescue mission is a provocative act and can be seen as an act of war. Destroying the Odyssey was the Dominion way of saying "Stay the hell out of our space."

They are the dominate power in the Gama Quadrant, the Federation are exploring space the Dominion may, or may not have claimed. Or the Dominion may have seen the space outside the wormhole as strategic. Which, arguably, it is. If that is the case the Dominion had every right in its own self interest self interest to guard that side and tell Starfleet to keep out.

Sending a drone...it could have been like that foiled terrorist plot recently to call 911 for a phony emergency, murder the responding officer, and then commit the main crime of blowing up the funeral full of cops...the Dominion could have requested through the drone that an ambassador and delegation to meet with their own and then blow the entire summit.

Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know. However the Dominion did know that he Alpha Quadrant powers posed a threat. A treaty, even one both sides knew would not be kept, would have given the Federation and Klingons more time to build up their forces. Make stronger alliances with other races, open talks with the Romulans, and more.

Lets not think that the Dominion was interested in anything other than killing people. The Odyssey was getting out of there, the Dominion's position made clear by their unprovoked attack on it. They killed all those people, including their own soldiers, just to drive home how hateful they were.

Lets not think that the Dominion were only interested in killing people. The Odyssey crossing over into Dominion space could be seen as provocative by the Dominion. They are the power on that side of the wormhole. A warship (and let's be clear, the Federation doesn't designate the Galaxy class as a warship, but it can fit the description of one) crossing into or coming near Dominion space is a provocative act.

The 1701D had to warn a Romulan Warbird from coming near Federation space.

Also, Dominion space was not initially near the wormhole, nor did they make any attempt to let the Federation know...well, anything about where they stood on anything. They had no more right to deny anyone passage through the wormhole, unlike, say, a highway that starts in Ontario and ends in Boston. Lets not also forget that no one owns the near arbitrary slice of the map that constitutes a quadrant. Just because the Dominion happens to rest in a tiny fraction of the huge portion of the galaxy that we call the Gamma Quadrant, doesn't mean that they have any right to deny anyone passage or settlement in it.

Dominion space was near enough to the wormhole that it felt the need to defend it. I tend to think of it like the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US had no claim to Cuba, but Soviet missiles there were a threat to US security. The US was gearing up for war over a tiny island that we did not own because the USSR wanted to use it. Our warships were in international waters blockading (though I don't think the Kennedy Administration used that word, but instead used quarantine) Cuba. The same can be said for the Dominion.

The Federation was aware of the Dominion, the Ferengie had opened trade with Dominion controlled planets.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Actually, the Defiant's original mission in the Season 3 opener "The Search" was to make peaceful contact with the Founders.

I guess they've taken the virtual reality simulation they were then stuck in as a realistic depiction of what the Dominion would like to do with the Alpha Quadrant. In that simulation, the Federation actually tried to follow a strategy of appeasement. As a result, the Federation quickly became the Dominion's lapdog, ready to withdraw from the Bajoran sector and wage war against the Romulans alongside the Jem'Hadar.

This was more or less what was going to happen with the Cardassians in the "real world" in the end, which only proves that the Dominion knows exactly one kind of "peaceful coexistence": as a subject of the Founders. They're simply unwilling and unable to form equal partnerships.

Even if the Federation had made peace with the Dominion, we can assume that perhaps another Alpha Quadrant power would have refused to do so. Which means that the Dominion would have eventually insisted on a Federation attack against that Alpha Quadrant power. A refusal by the Federation would have automatically resulted in the Federation becoming a target of the Dominion again. Either way, the Federation would have been soon at war... either on the Dominion's side or against it.

In the end, you're either an ally or an enemy of the Dominion. Ally eventually means complete obedience to the Founders, enemy eventually means that the Jem'Hadar will try to eliminate you as a threat. In that regard, the Dominion's ideology was flawlessly totalitarian and absolutist.

 

[neozeks]

Not only would they have lost six months of time to build up their own fleets, but chances are that they hadn't finished creating a way to make their shields against Dominion weapons. That's why the entire Klingon fleet got kicked out of Cardassian space. Weyon specifically states in "A Call to Arms" that up until then, Federation shields had never worked against Dominion weapons. It'd be a bit stupid to start a war before your shields work.

Nice catch. Really, sometimes it seems to me people enjoy saying 'Feds are stupid/cowards/etc.' without even trying to find rational explanations for their behaviour.

And sending one of the most powerful class of Starfleet ships into what Dominion held space, was not an act of war? An armed rescue mission is a provocative act and can be seen as an act of war. Destroying the Odyssey was the Dominion way of saying "Stay the hell out of our space."

No, sending the Odyssey was not an act of war. The Dominion destroying New Bajor, the colony of a Federation ally, without any warning, was an act of war. The Federation only responded to that.

Dominion space was near enough to the wormhole that it felt the need to defend it. I tend to think of it like the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US had no claim to Cuba, but Soviet missiles there were a threat to US security. The US was gearing up for war over a tiny island that we did not own because the USSR wanted to use it. Our warships were in international waters blockading (though I don't think the Kennedy Administration used that word, but instead used quarantine) Cuba. The same can be said for the Dominion.

See, there's the difference. The US was ready to go to the brink of war, but it didn't cross the line. It didn't invade Cuba, kill inocent civilians, destroy a retreating Soviet ship. Yes, it showed force, but at the same time, pursued diplomacy backed by that force. What prevented the Dominion from parking a fleet at the wormhole, contacting the Feds and demanding they pull back into the AQ, wihout resorting to blowing stuff up?

And it's not like the Federation made any threatening moves toward the Doms, nothing like placing WMDs in their backyard or something. Unless the Dominion got scared by a a few small colonies, runabouts and Vulcan science ships...

 

[Vanyel]

And sending one of the most powerful class of Starfleet ships into what Dominion held space, was not an act of war? An armed rescue mission is a provocative act and can be seen as an act of war. Destroying the Odyssey was the Dominion way of saying "Stay the hell out of our space."

No, sending the Odyssey was not an act of war. The Dominion destroying New Bajor, the colony of a Federation ally, without any warning, was an act of war. The Federation only responded to that.

The Dominion saw it as such. An armed rescue mission, that goes into the territory of another sovereign nation, is an act of war. As for New Bajor, we don't know enough about the battle there. The Dominion may have told them get off that planet and back across the wormhole within one rotation of New Bajor. We just don't know.

Dominion space was near enough to the wormhole that it felt the need to defend it. I tend to think of it like the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US had no claim to Cuba, but Soviet missiles there were a threat to US security. The US was gearing up for war over a tiny island that we did not own because the USSR wanted to use it. Our warships were in international waters blockading (though I don't think the Kennedy Administration used that word, but instead used quarantine) Cuba. The same can be said for the Dominion.

See, there's the difference. The US was ready to go to the brink of war, but it didn't cross the line. It didn't invade Cuba, kill inocent civilians, destroy a retreating Soviet ship. Yes, it showed force, but at the same time, pursued diplomacy backed by that force. What prevented the Dominion from parking a fleet at the wormhole, contacting the Feds and demanding they pull back into the AQ, wihout resorting to blowing stuff up?

And it's not like the Federation made any threatening moves toward the Doms, nothing like placing WMDs in their backyard or something. Unless the Dominion got scared by a a few small colonies, runabouts and Vulcan science ships...

The US was ready to GO to war. Not just to the brink. Full scale, all out, human civilization ending, nuclear war. The Soviets backed off and so did we, but in DS9 neither side backed down.

If New Bajor was in their space, no notice need be given. Say tomorrow the Russians build a few houses and settled on one of the Aleutian Islands do we need to give warning? I'm not asking if we're morally or legally required to do so, but rather as a sovereign nation, do we have to? And would the act of colonizing an others territory be seen as provocative?

Also once a colony is established it needs supplies and defenses?

 

[neozeks]

The Dominion saw it as such. An armed rescue mission, that goes into the territory of another sovereign nation, is an act of war. As for New Bajor, we don't know enough about the battle there. The Dominion may have told them get off that planet and back across the wormhole within one rotation of New Bajor. We just don't know.

First, the other side of the wormhole wasn't the territory of another sovereign nation, whatever the Dominion says. They may claim it all they want, the fact that for two years Starfleet barely got a few mentions of the Dominion in passing, means they sure as hell weren't enforcing it. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to plant a few automated beacons.

And secondly, the fact that New Bajorans didn't even manage to get a communication or courrier to Bajor suggest strongly that they weren't given any time to withdraw.

The US was ready to GO to war. Not just to the brink. Full scale, all out, human civilization ending, nuclear war. The Soviets backed off and so did we, but in DS9 neither side backed down.

But it didn't go to war and start shooting IMMEDIATELY. It cranked the pressure little by little, until the other side backed down.

If New Bajor was in their space, no notice need be given. Say tomorrow the Russians build a few houses and settled on one of the Aleutian Islands do we need to give warning? I'm not asking if we're morally or legally required to do so, but rather as a sovereign nation, do we have to?

Yes, you absolutely have. Being sovereign doesn't release you from your moral and legal obligations.

And would the act of colonizing an others territory be seen as provocative?

Not if the colonizers had no idea it was someone's territory (which it probably wasn't anyway).

 

[Vanyel]

^^^^^^^^^^^
You do make good points. I don't agree with them, but they are good. This is going to be a situation where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

Vanyel

 

[Cheapjack]

All this talk of war,war,war, particularly using human history as the reference point for everything, is SOOOOOOO depressing!

 

[Vanyel]

Fiddle-dee-dee. War, war, war. This war talk's spoiling all the fun at every party this spring. I get so bored I could scream. Besides...there isn't going to be any war.

 

[indolover]

Some thoughts:

Why? It's an entire quarter of the galaxy of which the Dominion is but a small part. Might as well sign a treaty with North Korea to stay out of the eastern hemisphere.

this isn't comparable. North Korea is one small state in the Eastern Hemisphere and East Asia, the Dominion is the major power in the Gamma Quadrant. North Korea's only threat to the USA is via nukes, the Dominion was lucky not to win the war, and probably has a more expansive militarily than Starfleet does.

And before anyone goes mentioning the Monroe Doctrine, let me say that it wouldn't work today - it's too easy to travel around the world...in that respect, similar to using the wormhole.


The Treaty of Algeron merely give the Romulans a tactical advantage in peacetime. The balance isn't tipped too far, nor does the treaty hold if there's war, at which time Federation cloaks start getting replicated.

However, the Federation would not break a treaty, and probably accepted to sign it since they were willing to accept the disadvantage to keep the peace. The Romulans certainly wouldn't break it, despite being devious as a species also. They have the advantage, and know well that Starfleet can readily fit its vessels with cloaking devices, if the Algeron Treaty is ever made null and void.

And impenetrable walls of mines. I wonder if, like shields, they could be set to let certain things through...like ally ships to continue exploring the other side. Worst comes to worst and the Dominions finds a way through (i.e. more allies on this end) they set off a Doomsday Mine to collapse the wormhole.

The mines were destroyed in season 6. If the ships had come through the wormhole, Starfleet was finished.

Then they'd come to our end of the galaxy to spread their "order" regardless of whether we appeased them or not.

The moment they learned about us we became a target. The Founders hate all solids everywhere. Even if we collapsed the wormhole, they'd know we're out here and that eventually we'll develop means of traveling to them without the wormhole (whether transwarp or something else) and so we remain a problem to be dominated by the Dominion.

When did the Founders know about the Federation, prior to first contact in The Search?

 

[Anwar]

The writers of DS9 said so, it was in some interviews and is written at Memory-Alpha.

 

[James Wright]

The Dominion War should never have happened, even if the Federation eventually won it.

- Instead of sending the Odyssey to get destroyed, Starfleet should have signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, or a least a treaty with the Founders saying the Federation would not explore the Gamma Quadrant.

- if the Federation can appease the Romulans by signing the Treaty of Algeron in good faith, what difference would a treaty with the Founders have made? Doesn't the Federation believe in peaceful co-existence with all species? The Federation always makes concessions, and the Treaty of Algeron gives the Federation a tactical disadvantage. A treaty with the Founders is no different.

- If the Founders had not signed it in good faith, then the Treaty of Bajor cannot be bonafide either, can it? The only thing stopping the Dominion from ever sending ships to the Alpha Quadrant (apart from the Treaty) are the Prophets, since Sisko can always tell them to destroy the ships. Sisko obviously wouldn't want anything to happen to the Federation, since he is a Starfleet officer and a Federation citizen.

What if one day, the Founders developed transwarp technology, and didn't need the wormhole to travel to the Alpha Quadrant? What if also the Founders wanted revenge against the Federation, and sent thousands of ships with transwarp capability to the Federation? The Treaty then would only be a piece of paper, and not anything the Founders were sincere in upholding.

this is just a thought i had, sorry if it's long.

I think you might want to watch "The Jem'Hadar" episode again. What would the Dominion lose by letting AQ explorers and traders into the Gamma Quadrant? The Founders were paranoid of "solids" from their corner of space thus they didn't trust any and all solids no matter where they came from!

James

 

[DarthPipes]

I thought Federation should have shut the wormhole down as soon as the Dominion started sending ships through it. Waiting as long as they did was inexcuseable.

The Dominion attacking New Bajor reminds me of the Gorn attacking Cestus III. I never sympathized with the Gorn. If it was their territory, they should have said so in the first place.

 

[The Librarian]

I thought Federation should have shut the wormhole down as soon as the Dominion started sending ships through it. Waiting as long as they did was inexcuseable.

They tried to shut it the moment they detected a Dominion fleet approaching. It didn't work.

 

[MNM]

The writers of DS9 said so, it was in some interviews and is written at Memory-Alpha.

The writers can say what they want, but if they didnt bother to mention it on screen, then it's just a stupid line that can be deservedly ignored.

 

[alicelouise]

A fellow named Neville Chamberlain tried this type of non aggression treaty with an expansionist power. There was "peace in our time". Well no there wasn't.

 

[Anwar]

The writers of DS9 said so, it was in some interviews and is written at Memory-Alpha.

The writers can say what they want, but if they didnt bother to mention it on screen, then it's just a stupid line that can be deservedly ignored.

And what makes it stupid that they were confirming that the Dominion were conquering jackasses? Seriously, it's bizarre that people sympathized so much with the Founders to begin with when it was made clear that non-Changlings had very good reasons to be afraid of them all along.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Frankly, the fact that 5 massive fleets of Dominion Ships were allowed through the Wormhole before Starfleet decided to do anything about it has really irked me.

Imagine if Canada signed an agreement in which they would essentially become a vassal state of China. Do you think the United States would be alright with Chinese tanks, planes, and troops marching through Alaska get to get there? Of course not.

War was very clearly coming. The only problem I have with the Dominion War arc is that the Federation didn't respond sooner and with more intent to win.

-Withers-​

As I said, the Federation's actions were, at times, appeasement. REALLY BAD ideea when you're dealing with someone determined to conquer you.

Middle S5 - Sisko tries to close the wormhole. This fails. Until end S5, the Federation could have closed the wormhole. It didn't, allowing the Dominion to send fleets in the alpha quadrant. Whoever made this decision was an idiot.

Then the Dominion slaughtered all the Federation CITIZENS from the demilitarised zone (only a minority of which were maquis).
The Federation did nothing, betraying its obligation to protact its citizens. You see, the Federation has not only rights regarding its citizens (such as to punish them from breaking its laws regarding...terrorism, let's say) but also obligations (such as protecting its citizens).
If I were part of a Federation member state, I would ask myself why am I still part of the Federation, if the Federation would abandon me to die so easily.
Whoever made this decision betrayed the federation's principles and its citizens. He's a traitor, pure and simple.

First off, they tried to collapse the wormhole at mid-S5 as you said, but because of the sabotage by changeling Bashir they made it stronger, both against their fancy safe-for-Prophets plan and regular weapons. That would be why they didn't collapse it later, as was clearly stated in the episode.

Second, it was never stated that the Federation colonists were slaughtered, just the Maquis. This probably included civilians, yes, but they had all renounced their citizenship and quite frankly were idiots for settling there in the first place. Maybe next time they shouldn't settle in disputed territory. Asking the entire Federation to go to war just because a few hundred people refuse to be relocated or just mind their own business inside the DMZ is silly.

Finally, we have no idea if the Federation was ready for war any earlier than when they started it. In fact, I would say that there's a good chance that they would have been crushed if they were stupid enough to attack that first fleet heading for Cardassia. Not only would they have lost six months of time to build up their own fleets, but chances are that they hadn't finished creating a way to make their shields against Dominion weapons. That's why the entire Klingon fleet got kicked out of Cardassian space. Weyon specifically states in "A Call to Arms" that up until then, Federation shields had never worked against Dominion weapons. It'd be a bit stupid to start a war before your shields work.

I'd also like to point out that the Federation launched the first strike in the war as it was. Blowing up a major shipyard before war's even been declared seems like being proactive to me.

First - between middle S5 - end S5 the wormhole could have been blockaded by a large Federation armada, weapons platforms, mines, etc, etc.

Second - It was established that the dominion killed every man, woman and child from federation colonies found in the demilitarized zone. Saying that all are maquis is non-sense.
Them renouncing their federation citizenship means that they are a separate state, no longer bound by Federation treaties. This means that the Federation has no right to hunt them down as criminals, terrorists - at most, they are enemy combatants, defending their country. Each time the Federation hunted them down as terrorists for breaking its treaty, the Federation confirmed the colonists's status as federation citizens.
And then, the Federation let them to die without lifting a finger, hypocritically betraying its obligations towards federation citizens, after it continuously made use of its right to make them obey its laws.
The Federation doesn't want to fight wars for the colonists? Well, then the Federation doesn't have the right to hunt them down as criminals, either.
The Federation wasn't ready (after it had ample time and to prepare itelf) for war? It doesn't change the fact that the Federation betrayed its citizens, let them be exterminated without iofting a finger (the klingons did more to help the colonists) because 'it wasn't ready'.

Third - proactive behaviour? After half a season of painfully idiotic appeasement? After the nazis attacked france, France acted proactively in defending itself, too.

First thing the Dominion did - they detroyed New Bajor, killing every single colonist there. In other words, they comitted GENOCIDE.

No they didn't. They killed every Bajoran on New Bajor, not every Bajoran; nor did they try to kill every Bajoran, so genocide was not committed. Semantics? Yes, but I think it should be pointed out.

Cute.
Vanyel, to use an obvious example, the nazis only killed jews from the occupied countries, not all jews in existence around the globe. Does this mean they did not commit genocide?


"The Dominion was not interested in peace - and this guaranteed there would be no peace:

First thing the Dominion did - they detroyed New Bajor, killing every single colonist there. In other words, they comitted GENOCIDE.
Despite the fact that they knew the bajorans/the Federation didn't even know of the Dominion's existence much less of its territory.
Despite the fact that New Bajor/the wormhole most likely was NOT in dominion territory.

Then they try to infiltrate a spy and they attack and destroy the Odyssey (which was retreating from a rescue mission).

Then they attack the Defiant (on a diplomatic mission) and subject the crew to a simulation "what if we attack the Alpha quadrant?".

Then they try to start a federation tzenchety war, they DO start a klingon cardassian war, various other acts of terrorism, they try to nova bajor's sun - killing BILLIONS.

Finally, they start open war.


The war was not caused by the Federation exploring the Gamma Quadrant or by Dax saying this or that.
It was caused by founder paranoia - as soon as they heard of the Alpha quadrant powers - too powerful for their paranoia - war was inevitable.

If anything, the Federation erred by showing appeasement tendencies in its behaviour vis a vis the Dominion."

I think that you're right and the Dominion was not interested in peace.

However, the Federation never had to send in any ship to attempt negotiations, a communications beacon could have done just as well.

Actually, the Defiant's mission was to find the dominion's leaders and attempt negociations - DS9: The Search. And the founders, with certainty, found this out.

 

[neozeks]

First - between middle S5 - end S5 the wormhole could have been blockaded by a large Federation armada, weapons platforms, mines, etc, etc.

But that would probably provoke the Dominion into starting the war sooner. Remember, Cardassia joining the Dominion caught the AQ powers completely off-guard. Starfleet was stretched as is, what with the previous Klingon war and Borg attack. Klingons likewise. It took time to reposition the fleets. Their shields still weren't upgraded to fully withstand Dominion weapons.
I see it this way: the second half of season 5 was a race - could the Dominion bring ships through the wormhole faster than Starfleet and the Klingons could ready themselves for full-scale war? By 'Call to Arms' Starfleet saw that it couldn't wait any longer but also finally felt ready enough to provoke the Dominion into war. Only then could they approve a plan such as Sisko's.