The fate of Romulus?

[Avro Arrow]

We're not answerable to the filmmakers' assumptions because of some nitpicky legalistic interpretation of the word "canon" -- we're answerable to them because Bad Robot has approval on our novels.

Sorry about the nitpickiness, but I was just responding to your post which seemed to be making the association with filmmaker intent and canon.

Interesting info about requiring approvals from Bad Robot... I didn't know that. But wouldn't that approval only be required for Abramsverse novels? Since we're discussing 24th century novels (TNG/DS9/VOY/etc.) is that really relevant? Or does Bad Robot now get approvals on all ST novels published?

And the idea that the new film is impossible to reconcile with the old continuity is naive.

So pretending that the discrepancies introduced by this movie are irreconcilable is a gross overreaction.

I would tend to agree, which is why I never said that.

There is no valid reason not to accept the film's assertion that the timeline was the same as the one we know prior to the Kelvin attack.

The film itself did not make that assertion, the filmmakers did. I'm not even sure how the film itself could unequivocally state that. We just tend to believe that because we've all seen the behind-the-scenes interviews, etc.

I apologize if my original post was expressed poorly. I wasn't trying to say that it was impossible that the pre-2233 and 2387 eras in the film were the same ones from the "original" Trek universe; of course it's possible. I'm just saying that it's also possible to interpret things in the film to say that they are not the same ones, so that the novels didn't have to destroy Romulus in 2387. As with many things in Trek, it is possible to interpret the evidence multiple ways, as many TrekLit novels, including your own, have shown.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Surely if the writers *must* take into account everything that happens on screen, then the books *must* end by 2287, because you can't continue a universe when it's been changed.

In IDW's "Countdown", we saw Nero and Spock's ships enter the black hole, and yet Picard, La Forge and Data/B-4 (and an unconscious Worf) remained intact, pondering what they assumed was Spock's second death. Clearly, the 24th century we've known, through TNG, DS9 and VOY, continues! Nothing canonical says that everything "*must*" end.

 

[mattburgess]

Lol, thanks for the detailed response, Chris! I completely admit that I was making some assumptions about "general" time travel, instead of researching the filmmakers' assumptions about time travel/alternate universes. I'm still stuck on the Back To The Future version, where changing the past alters the future, not just somebody else's future (as in a different universe's...You know what I mean )

"2287" - Thanks for pointing that out; a good example of how a single character typo can change something entirely, but that would be best served in a different thread.

And lastly, I'm not saying that I think those things should happen, I was just going a ridiculously long way around saying "anything's possible," so arguing about it is a little... pointless?

A whole bunch of people are going to hate me for being pretentious now. I'm not telling people what to think, just trying to give a little perspective. I apologise immediately if that niggles at people.

In IDW's "Countdown"...

And, completely forgetting where I have read this, so being completely unable to back up the following statement, I'm pretty sure I've heard even Trek authors (Krad and David come to mind, but correct me if I'm wrong), say trek comics have nothing to do with trek books, therefore, presumably, Countdown doesn't need to be... counted But this road can easily lead toward the "canon" talk again, and what people personally want to count as... "personal canon" (for lack of a better term).

Peace

 

[Christopher]

The novelists are not bound by the specific events of Countdown, but I was citing it as evidence of a more general principle, namely, as a refutation of the idea that creators of licensed fiction "must" end the timeline in 2387 to be consistent with canon. Countdown shows the original timeline continuing and so does Star Trek Online, therefore it's all right for the novels to do so as well, even if their specific depiction of events in that continuing timeline is different.

 

[mattburgess]

Cool.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Interesting info about requiring approvals from Bad Robot... I didn't know that. But wouldn't that approval only be required for Abramsverse novels? Since we're discussing 24th century novels (TNG/DS9/VOY/etc.) is that really relevant? Or does Bad Robot now get approvals on all ST novels published?

All ST tie-in proposals and manuscripts have to be approved by the staff at CBS Consumer Products, even based on new movies being made by Paramount.

I'd guess that John Van Citters et al would do the approvals as usual, but according to a set of criteria required by Bad Robot, in addition to whatever set of criteria has evolved over the years for vetting regular tie-ins. It won't mean that the staff of Bad Robot will necessarily have to read the manuscripts (although in the Roddenberry years, this was a function performed by first Susan Sackett and then Richard Arnold, who vetted manuscripts on GR's behalf, in addition to the staff of then-Paramount Licensing).

what people personally want to count as... "personal canon" (for lack of a better term).

"Personal continuity" is what many seem to use.

 

[mattburgess]

Ooh, that's a good one! Thanks.

Personal continuity is also a very important part of enjoying Batman comics, so I'm glad I have a term for it now.

 

[Stephen!]

Clearly, the 24th century we've known, through TNG, DS9 and VOY, continues!

Or unless it's like what Daniels said in "Carpenter Street", that changes in the past are just slow to ripple through the timeline.

 

[Christopher]

Clearly, the 24th century we've known, through TNG, DS9 and VOY, continues!

Or unless it's like what Daniels said in "Carpenter Street", that changes in the past are just slow to ripple through the timeline.

Which doesn't make any sense.

 

[Thrawn]

Clearly, the 24th century we've known, through TNG, DS9 and VOY, continues!

Or unless it's like what Daniels said in "Carpenter Street", that changes in the past are just slow to ripple through the timeline.

Which doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, really not at all.

 

[rahullak]

We're not answerable to the filmmakers' assumptions because of some nitpicky legalistic interpretation of the word "canon" -- we're answerable to them because Bad Robot has approval on our novels.

Sorry about the nitpickiness, but I was just responding to your post which seemed to be making the association with filmmaker intent and canon.

Interesting info about requiring approvals from Bad Robot... I didn't know that. But wouldn't that approval only be required for Abramsverse novels? Since we're discussing 24th century novels (TNG/DS9/VOY/etc.) is that really relevant? Or does Bad Robot now get approvals on all ST novels published?

That's interesting.

But I think all new Pocket books ST (24th century) novels will only require CBS's approval. So if CBS doesn't want Romulus gone, it won't be gone. Otherwise, it will.

 

[Christopher]

^Why in the world would CBS, owners of the Star Trek property, want to distance themselves from the most successful Star Trek movie ever made?

 

[rahullak]

^
I don't think CBS would. Just responding to Avro Arrow about requiring approvals from Bad Robot for 24th century novels, which I don't think is needed.

 

[garak1]

Given the commerical success of the new Star Trek film, I imagine Trek Literature will be eager to catch up to 2387 and show the ramifications of the destruction of Romulus.

Personally, I think it is a tragedy that the Trek universe has lost such an integral part of the galactic landscape.

I feel apprehensive about the future of Star Trek and the ideals it stood for.

Still, it will be interesting to see how the fate of Romulus plays out in the 'Prime' universe.

 

[Sci]

Personally, I think it is a tragedy that the Trek universe has lost such an integral part of the galactic landscape.

I feel apprehensive about the future of Star Trek and the ideals it stood for.

Why? It's not like the destruction of Romulus is gonna be played for laughs or something. Tragic things have always happened in the TrekVerse -- doesn't mean that Star Trek and its ideals are in danger.

 

[Christopher]

^Besides, Romulus is just one planet out of a whole empire. Really, how many Romulan stories in Trek actually took place on Romulus itself? And there's no reason the remaining Romulans couldn't settle a new capital world. It's a major change, but it's not really a loss in terms of storytelling potential.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

It was a supernova that threatened the whole galaxy! I doubt that even with Spock limiting the explosion's effects with 'plot matter', the effects were limited to Romulus alone. Remus would be gone too. And I'm sure that other systems in the Romulan sphere of influence, Fed planets on the fringe of the Neutral Zone, Klingon Planets... all would have been affected to some degree.

The explosion also propagated at Plot Speed, FTL, and we've seen in TNG that weird subspace nonsense affects space as well as matter. Who knows how Starship travel would be affected in the area. It's a Doc Brown localisation mitigation.

I can't believe I'm trying to rationalise that Saturday Morning Toon screenplay. Most successful /= Good

 

[iguana_tonante]

^Besides, Romulus is just one planet out of a whole empire. Really, how many Romulan stories in Trek actually took place on Romulus itself? And there's no reason the remaining Romulans couldn't settle a new capital world. It's a major change, but it's not really a loss in terms of storytelling potential.

And let's not forget the lingering hypothesis that Klingon did relocate their home planet after the destruction of Praxis. They said the oxygen reserve would be depleted in 50 years, and yet the Klingon capital looked fine in TNG and DS9. So they find a way to replenish that, or they relocated the capital to another planet. Both explanations work.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Well, I've grown quite attached to Romulus and the glimpses we've had of Ki Baratan, the firefalls, the native flora and fauna, etc. "Vulcan's Heart", "Vulcan's Soul", "Taking Wing", "Catalyst of Sorrows" and episodes like "Unification" and "Inter Arma..." all made good use of the setting for at least part of the story. I think locations are as important to the stories as character, and I'm not fond of their sudden destruction for no particular reason. It's true that story-telling potential has certainly not been damaged by the loss of Romulus (it may in fact have grown, and I trust the authors to make good use of the opportunities), but it's a shame to invest in a location, explore it, set multiple stories or parts of there, only for it to then be totally wiped off the map.

Of course, that's simply an unfortunate collision of the novel line and canon (it was the books that mostly made use of the setting in a manner that allowed fans like me to grow attached to the place, and it simply can't be helped that the new movie decided to give the planet a different role). It's not destruction that's the problem, it's simply that, unfortunately and as a result of this unavoidable collision of canon and novels (which the novels must, of course, give way on) the destruction of Romulus has no real meaning to the ongoing story. The devastation on Cardassia had meaning, as it was a natural outcome of the path that world and the galaxy as a whole had taken, sad as the outcome was. The loss of the worlds in the "Destiny" trilogy also had meaning, as again this was a logical outcome of the path the Federation and Borg had been on from their first contact. To be fair, you could even say that the destruction of Vulcan in the new timeline has similar meaning- it is the result of Spock's ultimate failure to bring peace between Vulcan and Romulan. However, while the loss of Romulus logically motivates this destruction of Vulcan and so (again, to be fair) has meaning for that new timeline, what meaning does it have in the Prime timeline? Okay, I certainly acknowledge that perhaps I am being a bit inflexible here- sometimes things do...just happen. The ongoing story needs a few out-of-the-blue shocks because sometimes that's simply how things are. However, it doesn't sit easily for me. Again, this is simply my personal prejudice. Romulus meant something different in the novels than it did in canon, and where there is a conflict, the novels must give way. Sadly, that means that the meaning Romulus had for me has to be discarded. It does leave me slightly disappointed. However, to repeat myself (and sorry, this must be growing tiresome by now ), I'm sure the writers will make the best of it when we get around to 2387.

 

[MNM]

Given the commerical success of the new Star Trek film, I imagine Trek Literature will be eager to catch up to 2387 and show the ramifications of the destruction of Romulus.

I dont know, the vast, vast, vast majority of people who paid to see the new Trek film, and made it a commercial success, will never go near a book shop looking for Trek books. So why rush the books further ahead than where they are and gloss over the stories and events that are happening now, just so they can have themselves in a post-Romulus era?